I understood what you were saying Mitspa but, IMO, the question is not about legalese or OT law and NT faith - it was about LYING for a "good" cause. And I don't think lying is ever good under any circumstances. There's a reason why they call the adversary, the prince of lies. I read a book once, called "the people of the lie" and it's all about allowing evil into your life and the gateway "drug" is lies. And I think it's a mistake for Christians to reach for this devil's tool.
Would You Lie To Save A Innocent Life?
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I understood what you were saying Mitspa but, IMO, the question is not about legalese or OT law and NT faith - it was about LYING for a "good" cause. And I don't think lying is ever good under any circumstances. There's a reason why they call the adversary, the prince of lies. I read a book once, called "the people of the lie" and it's all about allowing evil into your life and the gateway "drug" is lies. And I think it's a mistake for Christians to reach for this devil's tool.
Yes he is a liar..but His name "satan" means "accuser" and he always looks to accuse even when one is in the will of God.
You don't think the Father of Lies knows when you lie? Whether in a good cause or self serving, a lie is a failure in my eyes. There are some people who think they can use evil in a good cause and they are always proved wrong. And I'm surprised that anyone who reads scripture would think the opposite. But hey - maybe I'm just not that devilishly smart.
Did he know when Rahab lied? was she not justified in that her intention was to do what was right before the Lord? Of course she was justified and in the example of Rahab that is upheld as righteous faith...we would be justified as well and the "accuser" would have NO POWER to accuse us before the Lord.
I could say alot about Rahab but I'm thinking that whatever Rahab had to do, she did and became one of the Lord's people after she negotiated for herself and her family. She did God's will. But it is not her lie that justifies her. And I don't believe lies justify us. I really can't imagine a situation where I would lie but I know I'm as weak as the next person so I guess I might if I felt it was my only option. But I am much better, now, with misdirection, omission and silence than I am with lies. I believe if what I say is truth shows - no tell lies - than I am more likely to really save the life in question.
No its was the fact that she acted to protect God people, and in her actions she was justified and upheld as righteous. No one has promoted lying for the sake of lying..what is being promoted is TRUE righteousness, not this false righteousness that comes from keeping the "letter" of the law....this is the New Testament verses the Old Testament "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life"
Most of what Rahab said was the truth - they left (went on the roof and hid in the straw) and it doesn't say whether they searched her quarters. All we know from scripture is that everybody was afraid of Israel and she thought they would win in the war. She knew nothing of Israel, up close and personal. If Israel had lost the 2 spies, do you think they would have lost? Whatever - her lie did not justify her with God. She ultimately believed. And she lied no more. I don't see her as a justification for lying. If you do - then we must agree to disagree. I don't see lies as a tool we should use.
Yea. We don't think lying is okay. We just think there may be a cirumstance that forces you to protect another from harm.
Lying is of the devil, it is horrible, and God hates it. But our love has to discern whether or not we can or cannot do something.
Mitspa kindof opened my eyes when he put me in the situation. If you were hiding in my house, I would hide you from evil. And while darkness and hidden things aren't good in and of themselves, they have their purposes.
Lying is of the devil, it is horrible, and God hates it. But our love has to discern whether or not we can or cannot do something.
Mitspa kindof opened my eyes when he put me in the situation. If you were hiding in my house, I would hide you from evil. And while darkness and hidden things aren't good in and of themselves, they have their purposes.
God knows how to use evil - we don't. You can hide and protect without lying. It's hypothetical but I would make no judgement if you lied to accomplish what is needed. Excluding the antichrist scenario - you would agree that it is your judgement (not God's) on innocence? If they are innocent, shouldn't the law take on what needs to be proved? Or do you think we are already in the antichrist's hand? If the law is corrupt, that's one thing but if these things have to be faced anyway? I have a hard time getting my head around it.
Interesting read/exchanges, I learned a lot : )
I thought the story of Rahab was as simple as that, she hid the spies…
I read it again, she hid the spies yes....
.....and those spies are definitely not innocent people but combatants....
.... and she acted on self-serving reasons....
But the driving force behind her action is her faith of what she heard and believes….
….She may not have form of godliness but she does not deny the power…2 Timothy 3:5a
Joshua 2:8-13
New International Version (NIV)
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea[a] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.[b] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
12 “Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”
I thought the story of Rahab was as simple as that, she hid the spies…
I read it again, she hid the spies yes....
.....and those spies are definitely not innocent people but combatants....
.... and she acted on self-serving reasons....
But the driving force behind her action is her faith of what she heard and believes….
….She may not have form of godliness but she does not deny the power…2 Timothy 3:5a
Joshua 2:8-13
New International Version (NIV)
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea[a] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.[b] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
12 “Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”
Lot of good discussions.. Let me add my 2 cents once again!
Jesus never broke any of the laws.. Though it would look like Jesus broke Sabbath, He really did not.. It was made to look like Sabbath was broken because of all the things that pharisees added on top of God's Word.. That was the problem..
Can lie save a life of person? Not always.. That is the problem.. Because it is self reliant.. Even after lie, there is absolutely no guarantee that the life of innocent is going to be saved.. Can God save the life of that person? Absolutely.. He can do anything and everything.. Would God use lie to save the life of a person? I think this is were there is a big agreement.. The answer to the question is yes.. But that does not or justify the lie to be right.. Because God would always make things to work out for good.. Joseph's brother dumping him into a pit was the reason why he was taken to Egypt.. That does not make the action of his brother right.. Same goes to Esau and Jacob.. What Rebekah did was certainly not right.. But God used it for good.. God had already chosen Jacob.. Did it require that action from Rebekah to make it come to pass? Was that really needed? The answer is no.. Did Rahab really had to lie? The answer once again is no.. With our limited wisdom, we see only one possible result in a situation.. So we take things into our hand.. And lie to bring good.. But God is not limited.. He sees things into eternity.. He does not require a lie to bring about something good.. Our mind is bound by limitations..
That is why I was baffled thinking of Abraham getting ready to offer Isaac.. That was a point where he forsook his limited knowledge.. He did not think if Isaac dies God cannot fulfill the promise!! He said God can bring his son back to life.. A funny way to say would be - That is God's problem and not mine!!
Finally, can we live up to this? Absolutely no! Before I leave office, I would have broken the command to not lie so many times.. Where sin abounds, grace abounds even more..
Jesus never broke any of the laws.. Though it would look like Jesus broke Sabbath, He really did not.. It was made to look like Sabbath was broken because of all the things that pharisees added on top of God's Word.. That was the problem..
Can lie save a life of person? Not always.. That is the problem.. Because it is self reliant.. Even after lie, there is absolutely no guarantee that the life of innocent is going to be saved.. Can God save the life of that person? Absolutely.. He can do anything and everything.. Would God use lie to save the life of a person? I think this is were there is a big agreement.. The answer to the question is yes.. But that does not or justify the lie to be right.. Because God would always make things to work out for good.. Joseph's brother dumping him into a pit was the reason why he was taken to Egypt.. That does not make the action of his brother right.. Same goes to Esau and Jacob.. What Rebekah did was certainly not right.. But God used it for good.. God had already chosen Jacob.. Did it require that action from Rebekah to make it come to pass? Was that really needed? The answer is no.. Did Rahab really had to lie? The answer once again is no.. With our limited wisdom, we see only one possible result in a situation.. So we take things into our hand.. And lie to bring good.. But God is not limited.. He sees things into eternity.. He does not require a lie to bring about something good.. Our mind is bound by limitations..
That is why I was baffled thinking of Abraham getting ready to offer Isaac.. That was a point where he forsook his limited knowledge.. He did not think if Isaac dies God cannot fulfill the promise!! He said God can bring his son back to life.. A funny way to say would be - That is God's problem and not mine!!
Finally, can we live up to this? Absolutely no! Before I leave office, I would have broken the command to not lie so many times.. Where sin abounds, grace abounds even more..
Well its not evil to save life its righteous even if it appears to some to break the "written code" to some who do not understand true righteousness. Love is the fulfillment of all the law, if one does not lie, that don't mean anything if they do not love.
If we think that lying is OK under certain trying times, or when we are in duress we will be much willing to lie when things get tough. If we believe that lying is not an option no matter what the circumstances, are much less willing to even consider lying as a way of doing the will of God. Does this means we never lie in our lives? I have lied many times even being a Christian and I was ashamed of my actions because of it. The danger is this, everything we do, and all our actions are based on what we believe.
If you believe right you will act right, if you believe wrong your actions will be wrong. Believing that lying is nessary at certain times is in itself a lie. We do not want to believe a lie.
If you believe right you will act right, if you believe wrong your actions will be wrong. Believing that lying is nessary at certain times is in itself a lie. We do not want to believe a lie.
Funny how you guys are trying to lecture others by a standard you do not keep? Give us the standard you keep, not the one you don't keep!..Here is my standard, I will love others as I would want them to love me. There is no room for hypocrisy in the truth.
Hey darling! Always good to hear from you.
You mean to say that when someone asks you ....How are you today? And you feel like a truck has run over you, but you say.......OK!
But the real point here is and I repeat myself, we all do not know what we would or would not do in a situation of life and death.
I love everyone here but NO ONE will convince me that if a person breaks into your house at night, and you tell your 5 year old daughter to hide under the bed and be quiet, and when that person comes into your bedroom and says......
"is anyone else here with you?"
You or anyone else will then say......."Yes my little 5 year old girl is under the bed...Look, there she is"!
Now you all can say whatever you think but the Ole Major has lived a long time and I will tell you that there is not ONE SINGLE person on this site who would say......."YES, my child is under the bed" so that you would not be guilty of lying.
NOW...........after I had shot the intruder with my Smith & Wesson 45, I would have said to the intruder, NOPE, no one here but me and Betsey and she just found you!!!
As KingJ said.....Picture yourself in War. You are in combat. You are surrounded and taken captive. The enemy wants to know where the rest of your men are. YOU know exactly where they are but you tell the enemy that they are in some other location. YOU LIED!
To tell the enemy the truth means that your men will be killed. Would you tell the enemy their location so as to not be guilty of lying?
The only standard there is , is the Word of God, and our only requirement is to believe it. As Jesus said to some of his followers... "this is the work of God that you believe on him whom God has sent" This is the only work of God we do that gives eternal life.
If the Word tells us that all liars will be found in the lake of fire, then we should believe and strive not to do it.
Even the world who knows not God knows that lying is wrong, yet in trying times they will lie. If we think it is OK to lie to in trying times, then how will God judge the world when we the the Church are doing exactly the same thing?
Well gee you just admitted that you lie many times..and now you want to condemn others to hell for doing what is right before the Lord and who don't go along with your legalistic reading of the word? Be sure that you are bearing "false witness" in this thread! The "letter" kills...do you have any understanding of what that means?
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