Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

[Major]

Then your ready to discuss the salvation process or journey. If we agree on what true Nt faith and faithing are, lets talk about the true salvation process.

Faithing is the word the English language should have had for the translators to translate pisteuo into the English. The words believe, believing, and believer are mistranslations.

You want to start? Give your understanding of what has to happen in the salvation process and what order it must happen to recieve the Spirit of Christ. Then ill give you mine, or do you want me to go first?

Well......I appreciate your compassion to an old country boys intellect. I am always willing to discuss just about anything with anyone on the glorious salvation we have in the Lord Jesus Christ.

First of all.....I must disagree with your original Theis of............" the true salvation PROCESS."

Our salvation is instantaneous, and there is no need for any further salvific process. The effect of Jesus’ atonement lasts forever, and it covers the believer’s every sin. Acting or affirming differently insults Jesus Christ. After all, he said of his own work, “It is finished” (John 19:30). He did not say, “My part is done. Now you guys keep this going.”

Since Jesus overcame both death and sin (1 Corinthians 15:56-57), sin can no longer condemn us (Romans 8:1). As such, why would any ongoing processes of salvation be necessary… I mean… what would it do?

Keep us saved? The Bible will have none of that! Salvation is, by its nature, eternal (1 John 5:11-13), so any ostensive salvation processes would have no purpose — and I find it difficult to support any construct that has no purpose.

Now you have been careful to not say that our salvation is not eternal or "once saved always saved"
In the past. ALL of those who I have discussed this with who believe that salvation is a process will likely have a problem with the eternal security of the believer.

WHY> Because, if salvation were indeed a process, then it would be possible for a person to derail his salvation somewhere along the line. Such a possibility posits an insecure future of necessity. But we know that the believer’s future is secure in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:13). As such, we also know that subscribing to salvation as a process or adding any elements to the already finished work of Jesus Christ, is illogical at the least, insulting to Christ at the most… or an indication that a person is not really saved, at its most horrific.

Now, YOU asked and ......there is my position!

 

[Major]

How my times did Christ say "have courage"? Courage takes work and effort. Pisteuo means a continually surrendered life, wouldn't a continually surrendered life take work and effort. Choosing to serve Him by the surrendered life takes work and effort.

Christianity is 95 % courage, 4% endurance, and 1% everything else.

BUT..........."Courage" has absolutely nothing to do with the act of propitiation of Jesus Christ for humanity.

COURAGE has everything to do with getting out of bed in the morning when you are in so much pain your hair hurts.
COURAGE has everything to do with facing death when terminally ill.

THAT is the meaning of the word "Courage" which Jesus used which you posted and it has nothing to do with being saved.

 

[faither]

Well......I appreciate your compassion to an old country boys intellect. I am always willing to discuss just about anything with anyone on the glorious salvation we have in the Lord Jesus Christ.

First of all.....I must disagree with your original Theis of............" the true salvation PROCESS."

Our salvation is instantaneous, and there is no need for any further salvific process. The effect of Jesus’ atonement lasts forever, and it covers the believer’s every sin. Acting or affirming differently insults Jesus Christ. After all, he said of his own work, “It is finished” (John 19:30). He did not say, “My part is done. Now you guys keep this going.”

Since Jesus overcame both death and sin (1 Corinthians 15:56-57), sin can no longer condemn us (Romans 8:1). As such, why would any ongoing processes of salvation be necessary… I mean… what would it do?

Keep us saved? The Bible will have none of that! Salvation is, by its nature, eternal (1 John 5:11-13), so any ostensive salvation processes would have no purpose — and I find it difficult to support any construct that has no purpose.

Now you have been careful to not say that our salvation is not eternal or "once saved always saved"
In the past. ALL of those who I have discussed this with who believe that salvation is a process will likely have a problem with the eternal security of the believer.

WHY> Because, if salvation were indeed a process, then it would be possible for a person to derail his salvation somewhere along the line. Such a possibility posits an insecure future of necessity. But we know that the believer’s future is secure in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:13). As such, we also know that subscribing to salvation as a process or adding any elements to the already finished work of Jesus Christ, is illogical at the least, insulting to Christ at the most… or an indication that a person is not really saved, at its most horrific.

Now, YOU asked and ......there is my position!

Okay, so your understanding of the salvation "experience" would be a moment of believing in what Christ said, did, and promises. Then at that same moment, recieve the indwelling Spirit of Christ?

Is that correct?

 

[Major]

Okay, so your understanding of the salvation "experience" would be a moment of believing in what Christ said, did, and promises. Then at that same moment, recieve the indwelling Spirit of Christ?

Is that correct?

Yes.

The filling of the Spirit can only occur in the life of the believer when that person submits to the commands of the Lord. It is only then that the filling, or control, of the Holy Spirit can take place. Disobedience quenches the work of the Spirit in the life of the believer.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
" In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit".

It is really hard to NOT understand that Scripture!!!!!

The Holy Spirit is a gift given to all believers in Jesus without exception, and no conditions are placed upon this gift except faith in Christ.
There is NO test to take!
There is No deed to be done!
There is NO prayer to be said!
There is NO self help book to read!

Romans 8:9 (ESV)
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

To be filled with the Spirit implies freedom for Him to occupy every part of our lives, guiding and controlling us. Then His power can be exerted through us so that what we do is fruitful to God. The filling of the Spirit does not apply to outward acts alone; it also applies to the innermost thoughts and motives of our actions.

SIN IS THE PROBLEM! It is not praying for the filling of the Holy Spirit that accomplishes this filling any more than "FAITHING" or having more faith than anyone else. Only our obedience to God’s commands allows the Holy Spirit freedom to work within us. When we sin, we hinder His work and we should immediately confess it to God and renew our commitment to being Spirit-filled and Spirit-led.

 

[faither]

Yes.

The filling of the Spirit can only occur in the life of the believer when that person submits to the commands of the Lord. It is only then that the filling, or control, of the Holy Spirit can take place. Disobedience quenches the work of the Spirit in the life of the believer.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
" In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit".

It is really hard to NOT understand that Scripture!!!!!

The Holy Spirit is a gift given to all believers in Jesus without exception, and no conditions are placed upon this gift except faith in Christ.
There is NO test to take!
There is No deed to be done!
There is NO prayer to be said!
There is NO self help book to read!

Romans 8:9 (ESV)
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

To be filled with the Spirit implies freedom for Him to occupy every part of our lives, guiding and controlling us. Then His power can be exerted through us so that what we do is fruitful to God. The filling of the Spirit does not apply to outward acts alone; it also applies to the innermost thoughts and motives of our actions.

SIN IS THE PROBLEM! It is not praying for the filling of the Holy Spirit that accomplishes this filling any more than "FAITHING" or having more faith than anyone else. Only our obedience to God’s commands allows the Holy Spirit freedom to work within us. When we sin, we hinder His work and we should immediately confess it to God and renew our commitment to being Spirit-filled and Spirit-led.

You said "yes" that your understanding is that we recieve the Spirit of Christ at the exact moment we "believe" what Jesus did, says, and promises.

Then you quoted in bold letters," the Filling of the Spirit can only occur when that person submits to the commands of the Lord." If you could distinguish between the two for me.

You also said, "
"The Holy Spirit is a gift given to all believers in Jesus without exception, and no conditions are placed upon this gift except faith in Christ."

I agree with this statement. Salvation is conditional on the "Faith in Christ."

Lets see if we can start at a place where we both agree.

The Word tells us, "nobody comes to Christ less the Father calls, or draws them". would you agree, not to mention the work of Christ (Grace), that this call of the Father is the first thing that needs to happen in the salvation journey?

 

[Major]

You said "yes" that your understanding is that we recieve the Spirit of Christ at the exact moment we "believe" what Jesus did, says, and promises.

Then you quoted in bold letters," the Filling of the Spirit can only occur when that person submits to the commands of the Lord." If you could distinguish between the two for me.

You also said, "
"The Holy Spirit is a gift given to all believers in Jesus without exception, and no conditions are placed upon this gift except faith in Christ."

I agree with this statement. Salvation is conditional on the "Faith in Christ."

Lets see if we can start at a place where we both agree.

The Word tells us, "nobody comes to Christ less the Father calls, or draws them". would you agree, not to mention the work of Christ (Grace), that this call of the Father is the first thing that needs to happen in the salvation journey?

You asked me.............
"You said "yes" that your understanding is that we recieve the Spirit of Christ at the exact moment we "believe" what Jesus did, says, and promises.

Then you quoted in bold letters," the Filling of the Spirit can only occur when that person submits to the commands of the Lord." If you could distinguish between the two for me."

WHEN the lost person responds to the call of the Holy Spirit and obeys that conviction of sin, and then submits to the command that to be saved, one must call upon Jesus Christ and accept Him as Saviour! At THAT moment that person is then filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[crossnote]

WHEN the lost person responds to the call of the Holy Spirit and obeys that conviction of sin, and then submits to the command that to be saved, one must call upon Jesus Christ and accept Him as Saviour! At THAT moment that person is then filled with the Holy Spirit.

Correct…

Galatians 3:2-3 NASB
[2] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? [3] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[faither]

You asked me.............
"You said "yes" that your understanding is that we recieve the Spirit of Christ at the exact moment we "believe" what Jesus did, says, and promises.

Then you quoted in bold letters," the Filling of the Spirit can only occur when that person submits to the commands of the Lord." If you could distinguish between the two for me."

WHEN the lost person responds to the call of the Holy Spirit and obeys that conviction of sin, and then submits to the command that to be saved, one must call upon Jesus Christ and accept Him as Saviour! At THAT moment that person is then filled with the Holy Spirit.

Are we going to discuss the things that must happen in the salvation journey? Step by step?

Do you agree that the Father calling out people, drawing them to Christ is the first thing that must happen? After of course what Christ did on Calvary.

 

[Major]

Are we going to discuss the things that must happen in the salvation journey? Step by step?

Do you agree that the Father calling out people, drawing them to Christ is the first thing that must happen? After of course what Christ did on Calvary.

That is totally up to you.

I have already posted what I believe.

Titus 3:3-7 .......
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1. One must see himself for what he is before God will grant him repentance. A SINNER who is incapable of saving himself from the judgment.

2. Accepting the mercy of God. God's kindness and love is made known through Jesus Christ.

3. The old sinner must be replaced by a new self. This is called "regeneration." We MUST be Born Again!

4. "regeneration" happens once when we accept Christ by faith and at that moment The Holy Spirit invades our heart

5. All of this is rolled up in one word......"JUSTIFIED"! We are not "just" before God because we have been sinless, but rather because God, by His grace, has pardoned us. But this grace did not come cheaply. Jesus bled and died on the cross so that we might be counted as "just" by a righteous God. We simply could not and can not accomplish this for ourselves. We could never deserve forgiveness. It is by "grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Grace is God's part in providing the gospel for us; faith is our part in receiving it.

6. HOPE AS HEIRS OF ETERNAL LIFE!

Now some people would call that ONE STEP. Some would agree that it is 6 steps rolled into ONE choice.
But there it is: salvation in six steps or a process of 6 things made up into one chooice.......
1. Recognition of our need;
2. Acceptance of God's mercy;
3. Regeneration;
4. Renewal by the Holy Sprit;
5. Justification by grace and
6. Hope as heirs of eternal life.

The kindness of God has already appeared. It is certainly grace which continues to afford us opportunity to receive and grow in respect to salvation.

 

[faither]

That is totally up to you.

I have already posted what I believe.

Titus 3:3-7 .......
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1. One must see himself for what he is before God will grant him repentance. A SINNER who is incapable of saving himself from the judgment.

2. Accepting the mercy of God. God's kindness and love is made known through Jesus Christ.

3. The old sinner must be replaced by a new self. This is called "regeneration." We MUST be Born Again!

4. "regeneration" happens once when we accept Christ by faith and at that moment The Holy Spirit invades our heart

5. All of this is rolled up in one word......"JUSTIFIED"! We are not "just" before God because we have been sinless, but rather because God, by His grace, has pardoned us. But this grace did not come cheaply. Jesus bled and died on the cross so that we might be counted as "just" by a righteous God. We simply could not and can not accomplish this for ourselves. We could never deserve forgiveness. It is by "grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Grace is God's part in providing the gospel for us; faith is our part in receiving it.

6. HOPE AS HEIRS OF ETERNAL LIFE!

Now some people would call that ONE STEP. Some would agree that it is 6 steps rolled into ONE choice.
But there it is: salvation in six steps or a process of 6 things made up into one chooice.......
1. Recognition of our need;
2. Acceptance of God's mercy;
3. Regeneration;
4. Renewal by the Holy Sprit;
5. Justification by grace and
6. Hope as heirs of eternal life.

The kindness of God has already appeared. It is certainly grace which continues to afford us opportunity to receive and grow in respect to salvation.

I'm attempting to walk through this step by step with you.

Can we find a place of agreement here at the start, then take another step. If we don't agree with that next step we can discuss why.

Do you agree that the call of the Father is the fist thing that must happen?

 

[Major]

I'm attempting to walk through this step by step with you.

Can we find a place of agreement here at the start, then take another step. If we don't agree with that next step we can discuss why.

Do you agree that the call of the Father is the fist thing that must happen?

My dear.......please read post #69.
I clearly stated for you that..... " salvation in six steps or a process of 6 things made up into one choice.......

Do I agree with you that there are "STEPS" to being saved????? NO!

The Bible, even the Greek, only presents one step to salvation. When the Philippian jailer asked Paul in Acts 16:30-31.......
“What must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”.

I understand what you are trying to say to all of us.

But, Salvation is not about certain steps we must follow to earn salvation.
Yes, Christians should be baptized.
Yes, Christians should publicly confess Christ as Savior. Yes, Christians should turn from sin.
Yes, Christians should commit their lives to obeying God. However, these are not steps to salvation.
They are results of salvation. Because of our sin, we cannot in any sense earn salvation. We could follow 1000 steps, and it would not be enough. That is why Jesus had to die in our place. We are absolutely incapable of paying our sin debt to God or cleansing ourselves from sin. Only God could accomplish our salvation, and so He did. God Himself completed the “steps” and thereby offers salvation to anyone who will receive it from Him.

That is what distinguishes the Christian faith from all other world religions, each of which has a list of steps that must be followed in order for salvation to be received. The Christian faith recognizes that God has already completed the steps and simply calls on the repentant to receive Him in faith.

 

[faither]

Is there anyone following this thread that would like to do a serious step by step analysis of the salvation journey?

Honest discourse required.

I think we can find a place of agreement here. Is the salvation journey initiated and started by the call of the Father to Christ?

 

[forgiven61]

Is there anyone following this thread that would like to do a serious step by step analysis of the salvation journey?

Honest discourse required.

I think we can find a place of agreement here. Is the salvation journey initiated and started by the call of the Father to Christ?

what is there to add saved by grace through faith justified and sanctified the Holy spirit is with us the moment we get saved. its a spiritual birth . the filling of the spirit would depend on who you ask .imo we have to refuel roman 12:1:-2 transformed .it is not a one time event but a contusing process much like being sanctified. 3 steps 1. positional placed in to the body of Christ--the new Birth. 2> progressive we have to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him W.I.P work in progress .3 ultimate we made it home work is done

 

[crossnote]

Is the salvation journey initiated and started by the call of the Father to Christ?

I would say yes, but my question would be, "Does He call all OR just those He foreknows who will choose Him OR just His elect?"
(Be careful of rule 4 of the forbidden topics on CFS ( https://christianforumsite.com/threads/topics-which-may-not-be-discussed-at-cfs.39785/ )

 

[faither]

I would say yes, but my question would be, "Does He call all OR just those He foreknows who will choose Him OR just His elect?"
(Be careful of rule 4 of the forbidden topics on CFS ( https://christianforumsite.com/threads/topics-which-may-not-be-discussed-at-cfs.39785/ )

It's specific in the Greek texts. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group that is not called. It's not a deal breaker to discussing the salvation journey.

So keeping it basic, are we in agreement? The call of the Father to Christ is the first thing that must happen in the salvation journey?

 

[crossnote]

It's specific in the Greek texts. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group that is not called. It's not a deal breaker to discussing the salvation journey.

So keeping it basic, are we in agreement? The call of the Father to Christ is the first thing that must happen in the salvation journey?

I would say so, unless you want to put this first...

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yet in God's purpose, there is no before/after (time).

 

[Major]

It's specific in the Greek texts. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group that is not called. It's not a deal breaker to discussing the salvation journey.

So keeping it basic, are we in agreement? The call of the Father to Christ is the first thing that must happen in the salvation journey?

You said you wanted to "walk me through the steps of salvation" and I am still waiting for you to do that.

Second.........
Allow me to give you a few additional verses about God calling all, then review the idea that God only calls the elect.

1 Timothy...........
"He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 11:28.......
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28).

John 3:16 tells us....
" For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That whoever believes God’s call will have eternal life."

2 Peter 3:9.........
"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Clearly God’s desires is that all would come to Him and He makes a great effort to call all to Himself. But Matthew 22:14 gives us the outcome, but few are chosen. Why? Because God has given us free will to choose to follow God or the world and the vast majority choose to follow the world. The chosen are the ones who have or will accept Jesus as Lord.

How do we know if we are among the few that have been chosen? By responding to the call. Assurance of this certain call, this chosen call, is from the Holy Spirit. Consider Philippians 1:6, which says..........
“Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” “

 

[faither]

I would say so, unless you want to put this first...

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yet in God's purpose, there is no before/after (time).

Okay so lets move onto the next thing that must happen. And let me just say to be clear, I'm not promoting "steps", journey, stages, or some kind of cookie cutter process. I'm only acknowledging certain things that must happen, and must happen in a correct order. So when I call a happening "the next step" it's only because i don't have a better way saying it.

So we are in agreement that the first thing that happens( in our framework of understanding) is we are called out by the Father. I'm going to call that step 1.
Step two or the next thing that must happen in this exact order is we turn in our minds from our way to the direction of the Caller. This is "repentance". A lot has been added to what repentance is over the years, but if we look at the true definition of repentance, it's simple a turning or change of direction in our minds.

Are we still in agreement so far.

And an important note: At this beginning stage of the salvation journey Rom. 8 : 9 is in effect. We are only being called out and responding by turning from our way to His way in our minds. At this beginning stage we DO NOT have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet. So as the result of Him not being in us, and us not being in him at this point, Christ is none of ours, His word is none of ours, and the promises in His word are not ours "YET". Still basically an enemy of God at this point, but one He's calling out.

This kind of goes without saying, but wanted to make sure were on the same page.

So two steps, two specific happenings, in the correct order, in the correct state of being. Are we in agreement?

 

[crossnote]

1.
Step two or the next thing that must happen in this exact order is we turn in our minds from our way to the direction of the Caller. This is "repentance". A lot has been added to what repentance is over the years, but if we look at the true definition of repentance, it's simple a turning or change of direction in our minds.

Are we still in agreement so far.

I wouldn't fully agree. The next event to happen (IMHO) is the convicting of the Holy Spirit of our sin and of His provision in Jesus Christ...

John 16:8-9 (NASB) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

 

[faither]

I wouldn't fully agree. The next event to happen (IMHO) is the convicting of the Holy Spirit of our sin and of His provision in Jesus Christ...

John 16:8-9 (NASB) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Isn't that passage addressing the second coming of Christ?

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit isn't playing a part of the Father calling or drawing out the called ones, that could be the case. With that in consideration are we on the same page?

1) called out by the Father
2) turn from our way to His way . (repentance).