Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

faither said:
Isn't that passage addressing the second coming of Christ?

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit isn't playing a part of the Father calling or drawing out the called ones, that could be the case. With that in consideration are we on the same page?

1) called out by the Father
2) turn from our way to His way . (repentance).
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I believe Jn 16:8-9 is speaking of the Holy Spirit who would be given to believers to strengthen, enlighten, comfort and comfort those in the faith.
At the 2nd Coming of Christ, those aides won't be needed as we will have His Presence and Reign among us.

I guess we have hopped on different pages as I view the conviction of one's need of Jesus as a Savior from sin, the work of the Holy Spirit, where you seem to gravitate towards it being a work of man. Is this your understanding?
 
faither said:
Okay so lets move onto the next thing that must happen. And let me just say to be clear, I'm not promoting "steps", journey, stages, or some kind of cookie cutter process. I'm only acknowledging certain things that must happen, and must happen in a correct order. So when I call a happening "the next step" it's only because i don't have a better way saying it.

So we are in agreement that the first thing that happens( in our framework of understanding) is we are called out by the Father. I'm going to call that step 1.
Step two or the next thing that must happen in this exact order is we turn in our minds from our way to the direction of the Caller. This is "repentance". A lot has been added to what repentance is over the years, but if we look at the true definition of repentance, it's simple a turning or change of direction in our minds.

Are we still in agreement so far.

And an important note: At this beginning stage of the salvation journey Rom. 8 : 9 is in effect. We are only being called out and responding by turning from our way to His way in our minds. At this beginning stage we DO NOT have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet. So as the result of Him not being in us, and us not being in him at this point, Christ is none of ours, His word is none of ours, and the promises in His word are not ours "YET". Still basically an enemy of God at this point, but one He's calling out.

This kind of goes without saying, but wanted to make sure were on the same page.

So two steps, two specific happenings, in the correct order, in the correct state of being. Are we in agreement?
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Please see post #79 from crossnote.

He is correct! The Holy Spirit "convicts" the lost man of his sin and it is the Holy Spirit that points that sinner to Christ!

I enjoy the conversation, I am just not agreeing with you on STEPS to salvation. Many people are looking for “steps to salvation.” People like the idea of an instruction manual with five steps that, if followed, will result in salvation. An example of this is Islam with its Five Pillars. According to Islam, if the Five Pillars are obeyed, salvation will be granted. Because the idea of a step-by-step process to salvation is appealing, many in the Christian community make the mistake of presenting salvation as a result of a step-by-step process.

Roman Catholicism has seven sacraments. Various Christian denominations add baptism, public confession, turning from sin, speaking in tongues, etc., as steps to salvation. But the Bible only presents one step to salvation. When the Philippian jailer asked Paul, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” and that is what is seen in (Acts 16:30-31).

I guess what we are seeing in a problem in perception and IMHO, it seems to me that you are trying to promote an "Agenda" that you have come to accept. I say that with no disrespect, only from observation.

Again.......this is just Me, but from the way you are framing your thesis, it gives the impression that these "STEPS" are things we must do to be saved.

What I am standing firm on is that there is NOT ONE SINGLE THING that we do to be saved except one.......Believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ!
 
Major said:
...
Roman Catholicism has seven sacraments.
...
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Hi all. New to the conversation.... (seemed appropriate to jump in, considering the number op times Romans 8 is brought up :))

I think you might be onto something Major

If you jump back to #50 you'll notice the OP dropped a hint (Church built on 'Peter').

I could be reading this wrong but Faither seems to trying to build a case for a 'works' based religion, and the RCC would certainly fit the bill.

I agree with you and crossnote : "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph 2:8-9) = "I believe". (its a simple act, AND a process of "growing in faith", after we are saved. We don't stop believing, after salvation).

On the other hand...

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
The 'works' (things like feeding/clothing a brother/sister in need - James 2), comes after salvation..... it is not one of the steps to get us there. And it isn't 'required' to keep us saved either. Faith without works is dead, in the sense that our works may reflect our faith. Doing good works is an evidence that we have faith, but it is in no way required or one of the 'steps' to salvation.
 
Romans_8 said:
Hi all. New to the conversation.... (seemed appropriate to jump in, considering the number op times Romans 8 is brought up :))

I think you might be onto something Major

If you jump back to #50 you'll notice the OP dropped a hint (Church built on 'Peter').

I could be reading this wrong but Faither seems to trying to build a case for a 'works' based religion, and the RCC would certainly fit the bill.

I agree with you and crossnote : "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph 2:8-9) = "I believe". (its a simple act, AND a process of "growing in faith", after we are saved. We don't stop believing, after salvation).

On the other hand...

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
The 'works' (things like feeding/clothing a brother/sister in need - James 2), comes after salvation..... it is not one of the steps to get us there. And it isn't 'required' to keep us saved either. Faith without works is dead, in the sense that our works may reflect our faith. Doing good works is an evidence that we have faith, but it is in no way required or one of the 'steps' to salvation.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input and "WELCOME"!

We are in agreement and YES......James is saying that if we say we are saved and do not do anything BECASUE we are saved then we probably do not have that faith at all.

We do good deeds because we are saved not to be saved or stay saved.

I look forward to your posts!
 
faither said:
Isn't that passage addressing the second coming of Christ?

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit isn't playing a part of the Father calling or drawing out the called ones, that could be the case. With that in consideration are we on the same page?

1) called out by the Father
2) turn from our way to His way . (repentance).
Click to expand...

NO it is not.

Correct exegesis is always determined by CONTEXT.

John 16:7......
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when HE is come, HE will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment".

In the GREEK which I know you appreciate, the word "COMFORTER" means literally......
an advocate, intercessor, a consoler, comforter, helper, --- Paraclete. HELPS Word-studies. 3875 paráklētos(from 3844/pará, "fromclose-beside"

The COMFORTER is the Holy Spirit and in the Greek verses 8-9 is the "ANTECEDANT" of the HE in verse #7.

Therefore it has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Coming of Christ!
 
Romans_8 said:
Hi all. New to the conversation.... (seemed appropriate to jump in, considering the number op times Romans 8 is brought up :))

I think you might be onto something Major

If you jump back to #50 you'll notice the OP dropped a hint (Church built on 'Peter').

I could be reading this wrong but Faither seems to trying to build a case for a 'works' based religion, and the RCC would certainly fit the bill.

I agree with you and crossnote : "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph 2:8-9) = "I believe". (its a simple act, AND a process of "growing in faith", after we are saved. We don't stop believing, after salvation).

On the other hand...

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
The 'works' (things like feeding/clothing a brother/sister in need - James 2), comes after salvation..... it is not one of the steps to get us there. And it isn't 'required' to keep us saved either. Faith without works is dead, in the sense that our works may reflect our faith. Doing good works is an evidence that we have faith, but it is in no way required or one of the 'steps' to salvation.
Click to expand...
Hi R8, since you put in a good word for me, I’ll give you a Hi and a welcome to CFS…LOL.
 
crossnote said:
I believe Jn 16:8-9 is speaking of the Holy Spirit who would be given to believers to strengthen, enlighten, comfort and comfort those in the faith.
At the 2nd Coming of Christ, those aides won't be needed as we will have His Presence and Reign among us.

I guess we have hopped on different pages as I view the conviction of one's need of Jesus as a Savior from sin, the work of the Holy Spirit, where you seem to gravitate towards it being a work of man. Is this your understanding?
Click to expand...

Are you even taking the time to read what I've shared with you?

In the first two steps it's basic understanding that we haven't received His Spirit yet Rom 8:9. But you start claiming promises out of Gods word ( that aren't ours at that beginning stage) for a person at that stage of the journey.

When i posted an opportunity to go through the salvation journey, happening by happening, i said honesty is required.

Is this you making and error, or you not being honest?
 
faither said:
In the first two steps it's basic understanding that we haven't received His Spirit yet Rom 8:9.
Click to expand...
From my reading of the thread, it seems we (the others) agree that there are no 'steps' to salvation, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

And from my reading of the above comment, you seem to be viewing Romans 8:9 in a strange way. The whole context of that passage is "Life in the Spirit". It starts in verse 1: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Am I correct in my assumption that you are trying to teach Catholic theology?
 
faither said:
Are you even taking the time to read what I've shared with you?

In the first two steps it's basic understanding that we haven't received His Spirit yet Rom 8:9. But you start claiming promises out of Gods word ( that aren't ours at that beginning stage) for a person at that stage of the journey.

When i posted an opportunity to go through the salvation journey, happening by happening, i said honesty is required.

Is this you making and error, or you not being honest?
Click to expand...
Yes, I have read what you have said.
All the promises are ours in Christ Jesus.
I guess (according to you) I'm not being honest. Fine, then there is no reason to continue a disjointed and misunderstood conversation
Thanks for your opinions, I just don't agree with them.
 
Romans_8 said:
From my reading of the thread, it seems we (the others) agree that there are no 'steps' to salvation, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

And from my reading of the above comment, you seem to be viewing Romans 8:9 in a strange way. The whole context of that passage is "Life in the Spirit". It starts in verse 1: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Am I correct in my assumption that you are trying to teach Catholic theology?
Click to expand...

Don't say you've read the thread when you obviously haven't. I specifically stated I'm not promoting steps or stages , just don't have a better way to acknowledge the specific happenings in the salvation journey.

But since you've had the courage to make yourself known here, do you want to walk through the journey together and see what we do agree on? Discussing what we don't agree on? The only requirement is honesty. What do you say?
 
faither said:
Don't say you've read the thread when you obviously haven't. I specifically stated I'm not promoting steps or stages , just don't have a better way to acknowledge the specific happenings in the salvation journey.

But since you've had the courage to make yourself known here, do you want to walk through the journey together and see what we do agree on? Discussing what we don't agree on? The only requirement is honesty. What do you say?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry you feel that way but I did read the thread. It doesn't take a lot of courage to make myself known online, but thanks anyway. Simply saying "I'm not promoting steps" isn't helpful, when you start with "do you want to walk through the journey" that will obviously require steps.

You haven't responded to my comment on Romans 8:9. And you haven't answered my question.

Honestly, I think I'll pass on going on this particular journey.
 
Romans_8 said:
I'm sorry you feel that way but I did read the thread. It doesn't take a lot of courage to make myself known online, but thanks anyway. Simply saying "I'm not promoting steps" isn't helpful, when you start with "do you want to walk through the journey" that will obviously require steps.

You haven't responded to my comment on Romans 8:9. And you haven't answered my question.

Honestly, I think I'll pass on going on this particular journey.
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Rom. 8:9 would be the first happening that would need to be discussed. It needs to be understood to set the stage for the rest of the discussion.

Still want to pass?
 
faither said:
Rom. 8:9 would be the first happening that would need to be discussed. It needs to be understood to set the stage for the rest of the discussion.

Still want to pass?
Click to expand...
As already stated, Romans 8:9 is about life in the Spirit (in context). I understand it just fine, so your initial argument is fallacious. No point continuing. And your failure to answer my question (twice), in relation to this topic is disingenuous, so, again, pointless discussion.
 
faither said:
Are you even taking the time to read what I've shared with you?

In the first two steps it's basic understanding that we haven't received His Spirit yet Rom 8:9. But you start claiming promises out of Gods word ( that aren't ours at that beginning stage) for a person at that stage of the journey.

When i posted an opportunity to go through the salvation journey, happening by happening, i said honesty is required.

Is this you making and error, or you not being honest?
Click to expand...

I did!

A true believer in Christ can sin (1 John 1:9–10), but sin is not the normal pattern of behavior for someone who is in Christ (1 John 3:4–6). Non-Christians live by the flesh, serving themselves.

What is required is CONTEXT. You posted Romans 8:9 and said..........
"In the first two steps it's basic understanding that we haven't received His Spirit yet Rom 8:9. "

WHAT WE???? Paul is not saying that!

CONTEXT demands that is Paul making it clear to his readers, Christians living in Rome, that he understands them to be in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Paul identifies them as Christians, with a stipulation: this is true "if" the Spirit of God lives in you. In modern English, we tend to assume that the word "if" implies doubt, when sometimes it simply connects two ideas. This phrase might be better read as a condition which is assumed to be true. In other words, "You are in the Spirit since the Spirit of God dwells in you."

The reverse is also true: If someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he or she does not belong to Christ. Paul leaves no room for Christians who do not have God's Spirit with them. God gives His Holy Spirit to every Christian AT THE MOMENT THAT THEY RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST!!!!
Without the Spirit, we are not Christians (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:14).
 
faither said:
Rom. 8:9 would be the first happening that would need to be discussed. It needs to be understood to set the stage for the rest of the discussion.

Still want to pass?
Click to expand...

Question..........What, in plain old country boy English are YOU trying to pass on????

Obviously it is not orthodox or more people would agree with you and as of this post NO ONE has.

So instead of asking about......Reading your posts.......Being honest and so one, would you just please post YOUR Agenda/Understanding/Teaching so that we all can get on the same page.

As it is now.......we (Those who disagree with you) are playing football (ROLL TIDE) and you are playing golf!

Allow me to be HONEST, CLEAR and BIBLICALLY TRUE........, There is only one step/one function/one move and that is Romans 10:9...........
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Now I think where YOUR confusion is manifesting itself is your misunderstanding of the Bible teaching of "SANTIFICATION".

POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION IS ----
In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God:
1 Corth. 1:30.......
“You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” .

The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ . Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification. POSITIONALLY, WE ARE NEVER MORE SAVED THAN AT THE 1ST MOMENT WE ACCEPTED CHRIST.
WE DO NOT GROW IN SALVATION OR TAKE STEPS OR MAKE DECISIONS.

PRACTICAL SANTIFICATION ----

“Progressive” or “experiential” OR "practical" sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life and GROWING in knowledge and in the Lord which is seen in 2 Peter 3:18., or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it (Philippians 1:6).

This type of sanctification is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14) and is effected by the application of the Word (John 17:17). Progressive sanctification has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world:
John 17:18-19.........
“As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified”.
 
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