Nazarene Servant

Account Closed
Good stuff, guys. From reading 4 pages and 2000 views, it seems this discussion is honing in on the jist of the correct teaching Law of Moses, the 10 Commandments and the Gospels.

More to come...

God bless you all.
I have to second your post, Bob. We are liberated by Christ and not more confined.
What takes us to the cross is the fact we CAN'T do what He told us to.
 

Nazarene Servant

Account Closed
Thank you all. I very much love discussion, which sometimes also must include clarifications...especially when I don't make those clarifications from the start where my use of key terms is concerned.

MM
I think people, by nature, prefer to look for holes in statements rather than gleaning the intent anyway.
 
Another absolute I have tried to get across to people is that the Mosaic Law was/is an indivisible unit, and is that which was terminated by the Lord Jesus.

Many have gone along with the usual practice of dividing the Law into three parts, and to therefore uphold the idea that portions of the whole law are no longer binding, while other portions still remain intact as still applying to the need for our adherence today. It's important to see that it was an indivisible unit. When Paul stated that we are not under the Law, this included all three parts, including the Ten Commandments. Some will agree that parts of the Old Testament Law have been done away, but assert the Ten Commandments are supposedly still in force today. All three parts of the Law were designed to function as a unit to guide Israel in all aspects of their life under God's rule. The Ten Commandments can't be legitimately separated from the rest of the law of Moses. Further, even though most recognize this division in the law, the Jews so numbered all the commands that they approached the Law as a unit.

Ryrie stated:

“…the Jewish people either did not acknowledge it (the three-fold division) or at least did not insist on it. Rather they divided the 613 commandments of the Law into twelve families of commandments which were then subdivided into twelve additional families of positive and twelve additional families of negative commands.”

Further, that it is a unit is evident by the fact that the recognition of any of its features, i.e., as a meritorious system of righteousness with God, obligates the person to fulfill the entire Law, as we are taught by both Paul and James (cf. Gal. 3:10, 12; 5:3; Jam. 2:8-11).

Further evidence that the Law is a unit is the penalty of death for disobedience is attached to all three parts of the Law.

Penalties attached to certain commands further emphasize the non-divisible character of the Law. When the command to keep the Sabbath (one of the “commandments”) was violated by a man who gathered sticks on that day, the penalty was death by stoning (Num. 15:32-36). When the people of Israel violated the command concerning the Sabbatical Year for the land (one of the “judgments”), God sent them into captivity where many died (Jer. 25:11). When Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire before the Lord (one of the “ordinances”), they were struck down by God (Lev. 10:1-7). Clearly these commands from various parts of the Law were equally binding, and the punishment equally severe. The Law was a unit.11

Finally, three times in 2 Corinthians 3:6-13 Paul declares that the Mosaic system was done away with or abolished (vss. 7, 11, 13) in relation to those who are in Christ Jesus. In commenting on 2 Corinthians 3:7-13, Chafer wrote:

It is the law as crystallized in the ten commandments which is in view; for that law alone was ‘written and engraven in stones.’ In the midst of the strongest possible contrast between the reign of the teachings of the law and the teachings of grace, it is declared that these commandments were ‘done away’ and ‘abolished.’ It should be recognized that the old was abolished to make place for the new, which far excels in glory. The passing of the law is not, therefore, a loss; it is rather an inestimable gain.”

MM

Well....... I have to say that I can not agree about the 10 commandments not being able to be separated from the law.

Personally, I find the construct - moral, civil, and ceremonial - as valid.

IMHO, The law was given to a specific group of people for a specific purpose.
 

Garee

Account Closed
Well....... I have to say that I can not agree about the 10 commandments not being able to be separated from the law.

Personally, I find the construct - moral, civil, and ceremonial - as valid.

IMHO, The law was given to a specific group of people for a specific purpose.

The letter of the law. the sting death the whole Bible .
The law of faith grace working in a person neded to both hear the wil and empoewr one to do His good pleasure

Criominallaw laws as shdw used in parables (non binig no judging) Not a sign (self edifying) to one own self .Show and tell .

The written law found in the "book of law" the whole bible (the letter of the law) or the sting of death In it a person will not find one philosophical theory as an oral tradition of men .

Not one jot or tittle will be removed under the Sun.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Men who never heard the gospel (Bible) wil be judged by the gospel the good news of the law hidden in parables from natural unconverted mankind.(no faith)

By it men are judged. Without it all die according to the letter. Those who mix faith the eternal not seen with the temporal things seen, they are abiding in the perfect law of faith. In the end of the matter it is two laws working as one perfect law. Again the law seen as it is written and the conclusion to the parables as ceremonial laws the two mixed as one law of faith.

Mixed in are moral laws as well as ceremonial as shadows as sign to the world. It’s when men attempted to justify themselves by adding to the ceremonial as if it was a moral law. Most ceremonial laws that spoke beforehand of our bloody husband and the glory that di follow the grace were opened (first resurrection. And one new ceremonial law to show the change in the priesthood was added. (1 Corinthian’s 11)

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

On the last day under the sun .Both the letter and the suffering of the first death our tribulation we do have in the these earthen bodies of death will be tossed in the spirit of judgment . The believer what has been given a new born again spirit will rise and receive the promised new incorruptible bodies. The letter of the law (what the eyes see scripture) the temporal will not rise and condemn to death through corruption another whole creation. The book of law will become history never to be remembered or ever come to mind. Now is the time we can offer the good works we can perform being yoked with him .He makes the burden lighter and one day will be lifted in eternal rest. Until then not one Jot of tittle could be removed.

Second death, the death of death itself. No double jeopardy. Die once. (you shall surely die never to rise to new life .


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (suffering of death ) were cast into the lake of fire.Uthe second death.
 
The letter of the law. the sting death the whole Bible .
The law of faith grace working in a person neded to both hear the wil and empoewr one to do His good pleasure

Criominallaw laws as shdw used in parables (non binig no judging) Not a sign (self edifying) to one own self .Show and tell .

The written law found in the "book of law" the whole bible (the letter of the law) or the sting of death In it a person will not find one philosophical theory as an oral tradition of men .

Not one jot or tittle will be removed under the Sun.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Men who never heard the gospel (Bible) wil be judged by the gospel the good news of the law hidden in parables from natural unconverted mankind.(no faith)

By it men are judged. Without it all die according to the letter. Those who mix faith the eternal not seen with the temporal things seen, they are abiding in the perfect law of faith. In the end of the matter it is two laws working as one perfect law. Again the law seen as it is written and the conclusion to the parables as ceremonial laws the two mixed as one law of faith.

Mixed in are moral laws as well as ceremonial as shadows as sign to the world. It’s when men attempted to justify themselves by adding to the ceremonial as if it was a moral law. Most ceremonial laws that spoke beforehand of our bloody husband and the glory that di follow the grace were opened (first resurrection. And one new ceremonial law to show the change in the priesthood was added. (1 Corinthian’s 11)

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

On the last day under the sun .Both the letter and the suffering of the first death our tribulation we do have in the these earthen bodies of death will be tossed in the spirit of judgment . The believer what has been given a new born again spirit will rise and receive the promised new incorruptible bodies. The letter of the law (what the eyes see scripture) the temporal will not rise and condemn to death through corruption another whole creation. The book of law will become history never to be remembered or ever come to mind. Now is the time we can offer the good works we can perform being yoked with him .He makes the burden lighter and one day will be lifted in eternal rest. Until then not one Jot of tittle could be removed.

Second death, the death of death itself. No double jeopardy. Die once. (you shall surely die never to rise to new life .


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (suffering of death ) were cast into the lake of fire.Uthe second death.

Good discussion! I think that I agree with what you are trying to say.

I would only add that the Mosaic Law refers to the laws God gave Moses on Mount Sinai after releasing the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.

I would also say that IMHO which of course anyone can reject as it is only my thoughts, as I have studied the Scriptures it seems to me that the Bible gives at least four reasons God gave the Mosaic Law to His people:
1. for their own good,
2. to reveal Himself to them,
3. to set them apart in order to reveal Himself to others,
4. and to reveal humanity's need for a savior.

An excellent teaching site on this subject can be read at.......https://www.compellingtruth.org/Mosaic-Law
 

Garee

Account Closed
Good discussion! I think that I agree with what you are trying to say.

I would only add that the Mosaic Law refers to the laws God gave Moses on Mount Sinai after releasing the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.

I would also say that IMHO which of course anyone can reject as it is only my thoughts, as I have studied the Scriptures it seems to me that the Bible gives at least four reasons God gave the Mosaic Law to His people:
1. for their own good,
2. to reveal Himself to them,
3. to set them apart in order to reveal Himself to others,
4. and to reveal humanity's need for a savior.

An excellent teaching site on this subject can be read at.......https://www.compellingtruth.org/Mosaic-Law

The phrase Mosiac law would seem be seperate form the leter of the law. caled death. Does it refer to cerimonallaws as shadows .or moral as to the letter.
Good discussion! I think that I agree with what you are trying to say.

I would only add that the Mosaic Law refers to the laws God gave Moses on Mount Sinai after releasing the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.

I would also say that IMHO which of course anyone can reject as it is only my thoughts, as I have studied the Scriptures it seems to me that the Bible gives at least four reasons God gave the Mosaic Law to His people:
1. for their own good,
2. to reveal Himself to them,
3. to set them apart in order to reveal Himself to others,
4. and to reveal humanity's need for a savior.

An excellent teaching site on this subject can be read at.......https://www.compellingtruth.org/Mosaic-Law

The phrase “Mosaic law” it would seem be separate from the letter of the law called death. Does it refer to ceremonial laws as shadows revealed in parables as reasoning tools, or moral as to the letter. . the literal no need for a parable or hidden manna ?.

The law of faith mixing the unseen things of God with that seen would seem to be represented by the golden ark hiding its content in a parable the gospel understanding inside.

interestingly in the two renderings of the ten commandments the parables in respect to the ceremonial law which is a picture of the gospel to the world they have different reasons for the same result a shadow of the eternal rest in the new heavens and earth

Exodus 2011 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

One parable to bless another to keep it or guard it.

Deuteronomy 5: 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

In that way ceremonial laws are used as parables hiding the mysteries .teaching us how to walk by faith . Moral laws the other 9 they have no need for a reasoning parable they are understood literally not signified .
 
The phrase Mosiac law would seem be seperate form the leter of the law. caled death. Does it refer to cerimonallaws as shadows .or moral as to the letter.


The phrase “Mosaic law” it would seem be separate from the letter of the law called death. Does it refer to ceremonial laws as shadows revealed in parables as reasoning tools, or moral as to the letter. . the literal no need for a parable or hidden manna ?.

The law of faith mixing the unseen things of God with that seen would seem to be represented by the golden ark hiding its content in a parable the gospel understanding inside.

interestingly in the two renderings of the ten commandments the parables in respect to the ceremonial law which is a picture of the gospel to the world they have different reasons for the same result a shadow of the eternal rest in the new heavens and earth

Exodus 2011 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

One parable to bless another to keep it or guard it.

Deuteronomy 5: 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

In that way ceremonial laws are used as parables hiding the mysteries .teaching us how to walk by faith . Moral laws the other 9 they have no need for a reasoning parable they are understood literally not signified .

I am not sure why you are calling the Mosaic Law, the Law of Death. I think that must be something personal from YOU.

As simply as I know how to say it, the Mosaic Law is known as the Law of Moses. You see, it was Moses who received the law from God on Mt. Sinai. Depending on your school of thought, there were about 734 Old Testament commandments in the law, including the 10 commandments.
The whole Law of Moses came from God and was given to the children of Israel and the law covered theological practices, health and dietary, social practices and criminal laws, ceremonial, and others.

I again disagree with the idea that any of the Laws of God were "Parables" That just can not be the case at all. THAT is what you believe but that is actually not the case.

The Laws were clearly "DIRECTIONS" of what to do and when to do it. A "Parable" is a lesson that is hidden inside of a story and the Law of God certainly does not do that whether you are referring to the ceremonial, or moral laws.

If YOU personally want to think that then so be it for you. However that is not the universally understood world view.

Now the bottom line is really---really simple for the Christian today. We are NOT JEWS. We do not have to keep the law.......PERIOD!

Now......should we have the desire to not steal, not lie, not murder, not commit adulteries and so on???? OF COURSE WE SOULD.

But not for the sake of keeping a law or obeying the law, but we do it because we Love God and we follow the desire He has placed in our hearts to be obedient to Him. Can we keep the law...........NO!

That is what Jesus came to deliver us from the penalty of sin which the law demand is death as "The wages of sin is death, BUT, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ" (Rom.6:23).
 
My understanding of the mosaic covenant, ten commandments etc they were a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ.
If you don't have Christ, then you do your best to follow the law/teachings etc. But it's only by the grace of God that we can do them perfectly without falling short.

I think professing believers that start insisting on law are legalists, yes its good to know them and do them, but the thing is even years, centuries of having them drummed into their heads and practicsing them Israelites still fell short and would disobey every now and then until they put their faith in Jesus.

Gentiles were never under those specific laws given to Moses. They were never bound by them and hadn't made any covenant to keep them so were essentially lawless. The difficulty happens when jews would then say to the gentiles that they had to start observing the same laws as well, which at that time were very strict and specific including things like what you can and can't eat.

When you read the book of Acts they had this difficulty reconciling jewish practice with those who were not jewish. It comes down to faith. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Following all the rules and teachings but having zero faith is not going to cut it with God. Adding rules and regulations on top of faith is kinda going backwards. One needs to trust that God is going to have you do the right thing.

Peter, when he was shown by God Himself that he could eat any animal with gentiles, was quite shocked at first and couldn't get over it. But God gave him grace so that Peter could fellowship with the gentiles who were also believers.
 
Another absolute I have tried to get across to people is that the Mosaic Law was/is an indivisible unit, and is that which was terminated by the Lord Jesus.

Many have gone along with the usual practice of dividing the Law into three parts, and to therefore uphold the idea that portions of the whole law are no longer binding, while other portions still remain intact as still applying to the need for our adherence today. It's important to see that it was an indivisible unit. When Paul stated that we are not under the Law, this included all three parts, including the Ten Commandments. Some will agree that parts of the Old Testament Law have been done away, but assert the Ten Commandments are supposedly still in force today. All three parts of the Law were designed to function as a unit to guide Israel in all aspects of their life under God's rule. The Ten Commandments can't be legitimately separated from the rest of the law of Moses. Further, even though most recognize this division in the law, the Jews so numbered all the commands that they approached the Law as a unit.

Ryrie stated:

“…the Jewish people either did not acknowledge it (the three-fold division) or at least did not insist on it. Rather they divided the 613 commandments of the Law into twelve families of commandments which were then subdivided into twelve additional families of positive and twelve additional families of negative commands.”

Further, that it is a unit is evident by the fact that the recognition of any of its features, i.e., as a meritorious system of righteousness with God, obligates the person to fulfill the entire Law, as we are taught by both Paul and James (cf. Gal. 3:10, 12; 5:3; Jam. 2:8-11).

Further evidence that the Law is a unit is the penalty of death for disobedience is attached to all three parts of the Law.

Penalties attached to certain commands further emphasize the non-divisible character of the Law. When the command to keep the Sabbath (one of the “commandments”) was violated by a man who gathered sticks on that day, the penalty was death by stoning (Num. 15:32-36). When the people of Israel violated the command concerning the Sabbatical Year for the land (one of the “judgments”), God sent them into captivity where many died (Jer. 25:11). When Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire before the Lord (one of the “ordinances”), they were struck down by God (Lev. 10:1-7). Clearly these commands from various parts of the Law were equally binding, and the punishment equally severe. The Law was a unit.11

Finally, three times in 2 Corinthians 3:6-13 Paul declares that the Mosaic system was done away with or abolished (vss. 7, 11, 13) in relation to those who are in Christ Jesus. In commenting on 2 Corinthians 3:7-13, Chafer wrote:

It is the law as crystallized in the ten commandments which is in view; for that law alone was ‘written and engraven in stones.’ In the midst of the strongest possible contrast between the reign of the teachings of the law and the teachings of grace, it is declared that these commandments were ‘done away’ and ‘abolished.’ It should be recognized that the old was abolished to make place for the new, which far excels in glory. The passing of the law is not, therefore, a loss; it is rather an inestimable gain.”

MM
We are not under the Mosaic law, but the law of Christ!
 
I am not sure why you are calling the Mosaic Law, the Law of Death. I think that must be something personal from YOU.

As simply as I know how to say it, the Mosaic Law is known as the Law of Moses. You see, it was Moses who received the law from God on Mt. Sinai. Depending on your school of thought, there were about 734 Old Testament commandments in the law, including the 10 commandments.
The whole Law of Moses came from God and was given to the children of Israel and the law covered theological practices, health and dietary, social practices and criminal laws, ceremonial, and others.

I again disagree with the idea that any of the Laws of God were "Parables" That just can not be the case at all. THAT is what you believe but that is actually not the case.

The Laws were clearly "DIRECTIONS" of what to do and when to do it. A "Parable" is a lesson that is hidden inside of a story and the Law of God certainly does not do that whether you are referring to the ceremonial, or moral laws.

If YOU personally want to think that then so be it for you. However that is not the universally understood world view.

Now the bottom line is really---really simple for the Christian today. We are NOT JEWS. We do not have to keep the law.......PERIOD!

Now......should we have the desire to not steal, not lie, not murder, not commit adulteries and so on???? OF COURSE WE SOULD.

But not for the sake of keeping a law or obeying the law, but we do it because we Love God and we follow the desire He has placed in our hearts to be obedient to Him. Can we keep the law...........NO!

That is what Jesus came to deliver us from the penalty of sin which the law demand is death as "The wages of sin is death, BUT, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ" (Rom.6:23).
The Moral Law of God is eternal, but the BIG problem was that sinful flesh cannot ever keep it as required to be saved by it, hence the necessity pof the Grace of God!
 
My understanding of the mosaic covenant, ten commandments etc they were a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ.
If you don't have Christ, then you do your best to follow the law/teachings etc. But it's only by the grace of God that we can do them perfectly without falling short.

I think professing believers that start insisting on law are legalists, yes its good to know them and do them, but the thing is even years, centuries of having them drummed into their heads and practicsing them Israelites still fell short and would disobey every now and then until they put their faith in Jesus.

Gentiles were never under those specific laws given to Moses. They were never bound by them and hadn't made any covenant to keep them so were essentially lawless. The difficulty happens when jews would then say to the gentiles that they had to start observing the same laws as well, which at that time were very strict and specific including things like what you can and can't eat.

When you read the book of Acts they had this difficulty reconciling jewish practice with those who were not jewish. It comes down to faith. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Following all the rules and teachings but having zero faith is not going to cut it with God. Adding rules and regulations on top of faith is kinda going backwards. One needs to trust that God is going to have you do the right thing.

Peter, when he was shown by God Himself that he could eat any animal with gentiles, was quite shocked at first and couldn't get over it. But God gave him grace so that Peter could fellowship with the gentiles who were also believers.
Mosaic Law was given to nation of Israel, and not was carried over to the Church!
 

Garee

Account Closed
I am not sure why you are calling the Mosaic Law, the Law of Death. I think that must be something personal from YOU.

As simply as I know how to say it, the Mosaic Law is known as the Law of Moses. You see, it was Moses who received the law from God on Mt. Sinai. Depending on your school of thought, there were about 734 Old Testament commandments in the law, including the 10 commandments.
The whole Law of Moses came from God and was given to the children of Israel and the law covered theological practices, health and dietary, social practices and criminal laws, ceremonial, and others.

I again disagree with the idea that any of the Laws of God were "Parables" That just can not be the case at all. THAT is what you believe but that is actually not the case.

The Laws were clearly "DIRECTIONS" of what to do and when to do it. A "Parable" is a lesson that is hidden inside of a story and the Law of God certainly does not do that whether you are referring to the ceremonial, or moral laws.

If YOU personally want to think that then so be it for you. However that is not the universally understood world view.

Now the bottom line is really---really simple for the Christian today. We are NOT JEWS. We do not have to keep the law.......PERIOD!

Now......should we have the desire to not steal, not lie, not murder, not commit adulteries and so on???? OF COURSE WE SOULD.

But not for the sake of keeping a law or obeying the law, but we do it because we Love God and we follow the desire He has placed in our hearts to be obedient to Him. Can we keep the law...........NO!

That is what Jesus came to deliver us from the penalty of sin which the law demand is death as "The wages of sin is death, BUT, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ" (Rom.6:23).

The Bible does not use the phrase "Mosiac law" .There are diferences of opinion to what the phrase means Some would try and use it to refer to the Jews as if God had a seperate moral law for them

The whole bible is the law of God. It does not contain any oral traditions of men it includes the parbles which without Christ spoke not. Whole time periods are used as a parable .

Cerimonial laws are shadows of the eternal not seen performed as parables, the signified tongue of God.This is in order to teach us how to walk by faith.Hiding the gospel understanding form those who walk by sight. .
 
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Nazarene Servant

Account Closed
Galatians 5:1 (NASB) "It was for freedom that Christ set us free;
therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a
yoke of slavery."

Follow the Law by His Spirit and the newness of the creature.
The law was given to convict the Israelites of their sinfulness but
they instead became proud of the law. Those who would say that
we keep the law are not followers of the Law but proud of their
"righteousness" and lie to themselves.
 
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