bobinfaith

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Mosaic Law was given to nation of Israel, and not was carried over to the Church!
Agreed. Israel was never to be saved by keeping the Law which is seen said in Romans 3:20.

Two points very well said, brothers. There was God's reason for the Mosaic Law given to the nation of Israel but would not be carried over to the church - YeshuaFan

Israel was never to be saved (reference Romans 3:20) - Major, and as we study further we will see why.

Just a side thought. As we study the Old Testament there were many good servants of God who worked overtime with little sleep but could not get God's message to the many who lost perspective for God's will in their lives.
 
Two points very well said, brothers. There was God's reason for the Mosaic Law given to the nation of Israel but would not be carried over to the church - YeshuaFan

Israel was never to be saved - Major, and as we study further we will see why.

Just a side thought. As we study the Old Testament there were many good servants of God who worked overtime with little sleep but could not get God's message to the many who lost perspective for God's will in their lives.
Every cult and ism om earth, regardless Jw/Mormon/Sda etc, all have one getting saved by keeping the law in one form or another!
 
Strange that someone like Ellen White stated must be kept to even be saved, and yet NEVER mentioned in Epistles!

I agree with you. Is it true that she just adopted the teachings of here predecessor of the Adventist movement and husband, James?
 

Garee

Account Closed
We are now under the Grace of the NC, not law of the Old!
I would ask whose covenant was Abel after as the first recorded martyr and apostle?

Are you referring to the ceremonial laws as shadows that pointed ahead to the suffering of our bloody husband Christ beforehand and the glory that followed. . . the graves were opened (resurrection)?

It would seem we look back to that time of reformation they through the ceremonies (parables) looked ahead to the same unseen glory?

God does not divide moral laws among the nations. The letter kills
 

Garee

Account Closed
There are many though who base being "spiritual" upon keeping the Sabbath, which cancels saved by grace alone!

Yes, shadows used in ceremonies,. A gospel picture to the whole world they are not something we can judge ourselves against . the word sabbath is not time sentitive and canot be changed to make it. We will not enter our eternal rest in these bodies of death .Being yoked with him our burden is lighter and we have a living hope beyond the grave.

Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

They are not a sign to them that are moved to display the gospel from the ceremony but to the glory of the unseen hands that moves them to perform .

Some look to the Sabbath as a way of self-edifying . Like when some without faith demanded a sign from Jesus like he was a circus seal. Do a miracle. then having seen it we will believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Aaron’s two sons when they had a desire to become a priest of the old order they added their own personal show and tell . . ".I did it" called strange fire. .

They were consumed their clothing not effected. That ceremonial law is passed on the new kingdom of priests. . Jew and gentile from all nations the promise to Joel .
 
I agree with you. Is it true that she just adopted the teachings of here predecessor of the Adventist movement and husband, James?
Many of the early Sda founders, including her hudand, were Arians in theology, and she herself called jesus mighty, but not almighty God, so Sabbath keeping not their greatest heresy!
 
Well....... I have to say that I can not agree about the 10 commandments not being able to be separated from the law.

Personally, I find the construct - moral, civil, and ceremonial - as valid.

IMHO, The law was given to a specific group of people for a specific purpose.

What I meant by the indivisibility of the law is the idea of requiring adherence to the dietary and/or moral/social laws, and exclusion of the other(s). The HR movement teaches its followers that we all are required to follow the moral/dietary/social laws, including the feasts, and can disregard the ceremonial laws since there is no temple. That dividing of the law of Moses, or law of God, is something that scripture nowhere authorized mankind to perform upon the entire law of God.

When we talk about the ten commandments, that too is inseparable since it is repeated in the whole law of Moses. The ten are basically synoptic in nature, and was given to the nation of Israel. We have to remember that the requirement for sabbath keeping is a part of the ten, and dividing that out of the ten is, again, a subjective exercise nowhere sanctioned by the Lord to do to His law that was a part of the covenant with Israel.

Now, if someone can show to me where the Lord ever empowered mankind to divide up His written law into convenient, compartmentalized chunks, then I would very much like to see it. It would be a learning experience for me that I welcome.

2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

The way the Lord always handles the law involves it being retained in its entirety. Never have I seen where the written law was ever upheld as being obeyed in part on the basis of any divisibility.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can put into that text any other item of the law, and the guilt will remain the same for breaking any part of it, which would still lead to the guilt of it all. Paul just happened to address circumcision because that was the pet attack dog of the Judaisers.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

So, whether one adopts one item or all the law, breaking it in just one point makes one guilty of it all. This shows to us the inseparable nature of all the written law.

If you or anyone else has something that would add to this what may legitimize the idea that the law of God can be divided up in the sense of just one or more portions binding upon us today at the exclusion of all others, then I'm willing to give it a looksee.

MM
 
Yes sir. Keeping the Sabbath is something we Must do and that is not God's grace.

I can see how that can be misunderstood. My comment was aimed at those "Cults" and "religionists" who insist that we MUST DO things to be a Christian.

Example......
1. WE MUST keep the Sabbath.
2. We MUST be water baptized.
3. We MUST not allow women to wear pants.

I apologize for the confusion and after I read it I too saw it could be misconstrued.

God's grace says that we are saved by Grace plus "Nothing"!
 
Many of the early Sda founders, including her hudand, were Arians in theology, and she herself called jesus mighty, but not almighty God, so Sabbath keeping not their greatest heresy!

Thanks! Lots of people call Jesus many things. People who know Him by faith call Him the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-Man who made salvation possible............
Amen?????
 
What I meant by the indivisibility of the law is the idea of requiring adherence to the dietary and/or moral/social laws, and exclusion of the other(s). The HR movement teaches its followers that we all are required to follow the moral/dietary/social laws, including the feasts, and can disregard the ceremonial laws since there is no temple. That dividing of the law of Moses, or law of God, is something that scripture nowhere authorized mankind to perform upon the entire law of God.

When we talk about the ten commandments, that too is inseparable since it is repeated in the whole law of Moses. The ten are basically synoptic in nature, and was given to the nation of Israel. We have to remember that the requirement for sabbath keeping is a part of the ten, and dividing that out of the ten is, again, a subjective exercise nowhere sanctioned by the Lord to do to His law that was a part of the covenant with Israel.

Now, if someone can show to me where the Lord ever empowered mankind to divide up His written law into convenient, compartmentalized chunks, then I would very much like to see it. It would be a learning experience for me that I welcome.

2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

The way the Lord always handles the law involves it being retained in its entirety. Never have I seen where the written law was ever upheld as being obeyed in part on the basis of any divisibility.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can put into that text any other item of the law, and the guilt will remain the same for breaking any part of it, which would still lead to the guilt of it all. Paul just happened to address circumcision because that was the pet attack dog of the Judaisers.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

So, whether one adopts one item or all the law, breaking it in just one point makes one guilty of it all. This shows to us the inseparable nature of all the written law.

If you or anyone else has something that would add to this what may legitimize the idea that the law of God can be divided up in the sense of just one or more portions binding upon us today at the exclusion of all others, then I'm willing to give it a looksee.

MM

Romans 14:6, 14.......
"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God...I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean".

Paul is saying in the New Testament era it doesn't matter what we eat or if we consider one day special or not. Yet these things are in God's law which Jesus said would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away. How do we reconcile this?

Now if you will think this through, tell me if there is only 3 possible answere.

1. No, Old Testament law is done away with in Christ. They have no binding power on us today. This view tends to lead to confusion because people are encouraged to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, and yet, they cannot use the majority of the Bible [Old Testament] to test to see if the Holy Spirit is really leading them. They tend to drift into doing what is right in their own eyes.

2. Yes, all the Old Testament law is literally binding on us today. These people tend to become legalistic. They must be careful in what they eat, how they dress, where they go, etc. This tends to bring bondage. Also fear can come in for, if I break the law, have I lost my salvation?

3. Some of the Old Testament law is binding and some is not. The danger with this view is we tend to pick and choose which laws we want to be binding. If we are not careful we end up manipulating the Word of God for our own purposes.

It appears to ME that we are only left with option #3 above. But if some Biblical laws are binding in their literal sense and some are not, how do we know which are which? How do we avoid the danger of our own picking and choosing? Certainly we cannot decide for ourselves which laws are currently binding and which ones are not. That would put us as a judge of Scripture instead of allowing Scripture to judge us. The Scripture must be our guide and standard.

The ceremonial laws deal with the sacrifices, the temple, the priesthood, the feast days, but We are no longer expected to offer animal sacrifices on an altar neither do we have a High Priest who must enter the physical Holy of Holies on our behalf on a regular day to cover our sins. WE JUST DO NOT BELIEVE that, so if we do not do it have we broken the Law of God????

The non-ceremonial laws deal with rules for living according to God's design and they include Dietary laws.

The Law says that eating PORK is forbidden but Paul says that ALL THINGS are acceptable if they are blessed. So if we non-kosher food have we broken the Laws of God....ALL of them????

Does this mean the ceremonial laws are unimportant for us today? Not at all! It only means we do not keep them in a literal, physical sense. The ceremonial laws were symbols or shadows of Jesus and His work. In a very real, spiritual way, by living in Christ, we are keeping them. And, of course, they are a wealth of insight into WHO JESUS IS, what He accomplished, how God expects to be worshiped, etc. They are very important and we do keep them in their true sense, which is not in the literal way they were kept in the Old Testament. In the New Testament they have come into their full meaning in Jesus Christ.

What about the non-ceremonial laws? They are in full force. Jesus even expanded on some of them showing it is not just the acts, but the intents of the heart that God judges. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery': but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" [Matt. 5:27-28 NAS].

Thats my story!
 

Garee

Account Closed
When we talk about the ten commandments, that too is inseparable since it is repeated in the whole law of Moses. The ten are basically synoptic in nature, and was given to the nation of Israel. We have to remember that the requirement for sabbath keeping is a part of the ten, and dividing that out of the ten is, again, a subjective exercise nowhere sanctioned by the Lord to do to His law that was a part of the covenant with Israel.
One of the ten used as a shadow . Ten represents the whole law the book of the law . . .the Bible. No philisphical theoires of men. In the beginging God the first law. Do not add or substract the last.

The sabbath shadow is used as a shadow of good things to come. The eternal rest in the new order.

Shadows are not judge-able they point to the unseen as demonstration to the whole world in a hope of drawing them to the law of God, as it is written (gospel) .Not a self-edifying sign to ones self. Aaron’s two sons found out the hard way ..

The reformation is here working for two thousand literal years the government of peace (the father and Son working as one God) The abomination of desolation “kings in Israel” came to an end .

That time period kings in israel it served as a parable (figure) shown by using the “signified” tongue of God. It as it is written is still reforming the body of Christ as it is written. Sola scriptural the reforming authority in any generation or family .

The first century reformation from my experience has lost much as to its use in declaring the gospel . The 15 century a carbon copy is where most direct the attention. Making it about flesh and blood .The very thing the reformation made to no effect the first time .

Hebrew9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Until the abomination of desolation when the veil is rent.(it is finsifhed") and not one micro second past. The shadows disapreared.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal .It as it is written works in us seen. . to both will and empower those yoked with Christ.
 

1 Timothy 1:9

King James Version

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

law tells us what sin is Grace fixes sin.
 
Romans 14:6, 14.......
"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God...I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean".

Paul is saying in the New Testament era it doesn't matter what we eat or if we consider one day special or not. Yet these things are in God's law which Jesus said would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away. How do we reconcile this?

Now if you will think this through, tell me if there is only 3 possible answere.

1. No, Old Testament law is done away with in Christ. They have no binding power on us today. This view tends to lead to confusion because people are encouraged to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, and yet, they cannot use the majority of the Bible [Old Testament] to test to see if the Holy Spirit is really leading them. They tend to drift into doing what is right in their own eyes.

2. Yes, all the Old Testament law is literally binding on us today. These people tend to become legalistic. They must be careful in what they eat, how they dress, where they go, etc. This tends to bring bondage. Also fear can come in for, if I break the law, have I lost my salvation?

3. Some of the Old Testament law is binding and some is not. The danger with this view is we tend to pick and choose which laws we want to be binding. If we are not careful we end up manipulating the Word of God for our own purposes.

It appears to ME that we are only left with option #3 above. But if some Biblical laws are binding in their literal sense and some are not, how do we know which are which? How do we avoid the danger of our own picking and choosing? Certainly we cannot decide for ourselves which laws are currently binding and which ones are not. That would put us as a judge of Scripture instead of allowing Scripture to judge us. The Scripture must be our guide and standard.

The ceremonial laws deal with the sacrifices, the temple, the priesthood, the feast days, but We are no longer expected to offer animal sacrifices on an altar neither do we have a High Priest who must enter the physical Holy of Holies on our behalf on a regular day to cover our sins. WE JUST DO NOT BELIEVE that, so if we do not do it have we broken the Law of God????

The non-ceremonial laws deal with rules for living according to God's design and they include Dietary laws.

The Law says that eating PORK is forbidden but Paul says that ALL THINGS are acceptable if they are blessed. So if we non-kosher food have we broken the Laws of God....ALL of them????

Does this mean the ceremonial laws are unimportant for us today? Not at all! It only means we do not keep them in a literal, physical sense. The ceremonial laws were symbols or shadows of Jesus and His work. In a very real, spiritual way, by living in Christ, we are keeping them. And, of course, they are a wealth of insight into WHO JESUS IS, what He accomplished, how God expects to be worshiped, etc. They are very important and we do keep them in their true sense, which is not in the literal way they were kept in the Old Testament. In the New Testament they have come into their full meaning in Jesus Christ.

What about the non-ceremonial laws? They are in full force. Jesus even expanded on some of them showing it is not just the acts, but the intents of the heart that God judges. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery': but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" [Matt. 5:27-28 NAS].

Thats my story!

Jesus, being absolutely consistent with His law, instructed one of the men He healed to go and offer up a sacrifice as commanded by Moses, according to the law.

It makes sense that Jesus did that, although that is not binding upon us today since, at that time, He had not yet established the New Covenant in His blood, and thus taking us all to the grave with Him so that they and we are dead to the law, and then raised up with Him in the new birth.

MM
 
One of the ten used as a shadow . Ten represents the whole law the book of the law . . .the Bible. No philisphical theoires of men. In the beginging God the first law. Do not add or substract the last.

The sabbath shadow is used as a shadow of good things to come. The eternal rest in the new order.

Shadows are not judge-able they point to the unseen as demonstration to the whole world in a hope of drawing them to the law of God, as it is written (gospel) .Not a self-edifying sign to ones self. Aaron’s two sons found out the hard way ..

The reformation is here working for two thousand literal years the government of peace (the father and Son working as one God) The abomination of desolation “kings in Israel” came to an end .

That time period kings in israel it served as a parable (figure) shown by using the “signified” tongue of God. It as it is written is still reforming the body of Christ as it is written. Sola scriptural the reforming authority in any generation or family .

The first century reformation from my experience has lost much as to its use in declaring the gospel . The 15 century a carbon copy is where most direct the attention. Making it about flesh and blood .The very thing the reformation made to no effect the first time .

Hebrew9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Until the abomination of desolation when the veil is rent.(it is finsifhed") and not one micro second past. The shadows disapreared.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal .It as it is written works in us seen. . to both will and empower those yoked with Christ.

I'm not sure I follow your meaning on the basis of your grammar. The abomination of desolation is yet to be seen when the anti-christ enters the temple and declares himself God, and to be worshipped by all the earth in the middle of the Tribulation (the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble).

Although the Jews will have re-established animal sacrifices, they will be stopped by that man. We're also told that animal sacrifices will be in full force during the Millennial Kingdom when Christ rules the earth.

All of this is written, and so it shall be done.

MM
 
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