I would ask. . How can we keep a shadow of the unseen eternal sabbath (rest )?

Can we trust the SDA as a law of the fathers those who walk by sight ?

Like many words if someone changes the meaning of one word then a person can change the authors intent and take away the integrity of the whole law of hermeneutics. . .

Deuteromomy4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.


That law coupled with the law not to add to the whole book before it was sealed till the end of time found in Revelation 22 must be applied. Together they protect the whole as the sword of the Spirit.

The word rest is not a time sensitive word like week or day. We have a shadow of that eternal rest the unseen substance if we mix faith the unseen, with the temporal seen. But we cannot keep shadows.

Shadows can disappear like with Jonah 4 .

I would think we should define the word rest before we look to how can we keep it otherwise we could be changing the intent.
 
I would ask. . How can we keep a shadow of the unseen eternal sabbath (rest )?

Can we trust the SDA as a law of the fathers those who walk by sight ?

Like many words if someone changes the meaning of one word then a person can change the authors intent and take away the integrity of the whole law of hermeneutics. . .

Deuteromomy4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.


That law coupled with the law not to add to the whole book before it was sealed till the end of time found in Revelation 22 must be applied. Together they protect the whole as the sword of the Spirit.

The word rest is not a time sensitive word like week or day. We have a shadow of that eternal rest the unseen substance if we mix faith the unseen, with the temporal seen. But we cannot keep shadows.

Shadows can disappear like with Jonah 4 .

I would think we should define the word rest before we look to how can we keep it otherwise we could be changing the intent.

Well, I don't try to keep the sabbath by any sense of the word, nor by any of the contrived meanings that various of the legalistic crowds apply to it.

The key to the creation sabbath is where it's said that the Lord "sanctified" it. When men fail to properly discern, or at least ask the Lord for understanding, they float along in life with no understanding for what is yet to come. He did not sanctify the day He created mankind, but only the day that HE rested from His work. That speaks volumes to magnitude of its reference to what is yet to come. That is glorious and is a worthy reason for lifting up our voices in praise unto the Lord, with hearts filled with worship, to the Lord alone.

MM
 
I'm not sure I follow your meaning on the basis of your grammar. The abomination of desolation is yet to be seen when the anti-christ enters the temple and declares himself God, and to be worshipped by all the earth in the middle of the Tribulation (the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble).

Although the Jews will have re-established animal sacrifices, they will be stopped by that man. We're also told that animal sacrifices will be in full force during the Millennial Kingdom when Christ rules the earth.

All of this is written, and so it shall be done.

MM

Many do support that idea. It was taught at my home church where I heard the gospel and believed according to the new faith that works from within.



The abomination of desolation is kings in Israel a hierarchy of faithless men who had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations that also walked by sight .( out of mind out of sight ) God calls fools .

Hi thanks .Not a salvation isue.

They refused to worship a King they could not see .They had no faith that alone comes as it is written in the law and prophets. When the time of reformation came (Hebrews 9) just before he declared the demonstration was finished he walked out of the temple made with hands for the last time declaring by his action used as a parable the words he spoke made lieless stonest desolate. (no value in pleasing God ).

He never entered it again having been made desolate. We are the living temple of God always have been. God does not live in temples made with corrupted human hands as if he needed anything from the clay he is forming. .

That period of time used as a parable came to an end. . it as it is written (sola scriptura) is still doing it works of reforming the believers new heart from faith to faith again as it is written .

Matthew 23: 38-39 and Mathew 24 :1-3 working together . . .the context.

Matthew 23: 38-39 King James Version (KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

To show through his action as a parable he departed. The disciples not understanding the parable must of thought he had his eyes closed or he was blind. Many times he hid the meaning to teach them how to walk by faith mixing the things seen like the high mountain, the Mount of Olives to represent all the kingdoms of the world. The place of hidden glory.

Mathew 24 :1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No sign as a wonder was given. Sign of the times history repeating itself because of moral issues, yes.

Some say when the last stone was thrown down.? All of the stones were made desolate when he uttered the words , “your house is left unto you desolate”
 
Well, I don't try to keep the sabbath by any sense of the word, nor by any of the contrived meanings that various of the legalistic crowds apply to it.

The key to the creation sabbath is where it's said that the Lord "sanctified" it. When men fail to properly discern, or at least ask the Lord for understanding, they float along in life with no understanding for what is yet to come. He did not sanctify the day He created mankind, but only the day that HE rested from His work. That speaks volumes to magnitude of its reference to what is yet to come. That is glorious and is a worthy reason for lifting up our voices in praise unto the Lord, with hearts filled with worship, to the Lord alone.

MM
Again we would first have to define the word "rest". then we can seek after how to keep . Can't keep shadows . The moment you add a time element something changes.

The translaters semed to lean towrds adding a time element to the word.(SDA) a law of the fathers oral tradition of man.

Youngs Literal trans defines it as rest once Mathew 28 but like others translators the word rest becomes a time senistive word like week . A word that was not even coined in the Greek til much later in history . In doing so cause confiusion wherever the word week appears .

Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Below removes the idea of time sensitive . . rather as . towards the new era of a shadow of ceremonial rest, the first day There is no law as to what day the sabaaths fall on . Just as there is not law that states cerinil laws are not part of the tn comandmnets .No all have noral consequences

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre
 
Many do support that idea. It was taught at my home church where I heard the gospel and believed according to the new faith that works from within.



The abomination of desolation is kings in Israel a hierarchy of faithless men who had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations that also walked by sight .( out of mind out of sight ) God calls fools .

Hi thanks .Not a salvation isue.

They refused to worship a King they could not see .They had no faith that alone comes as it is written in the law and prophets. When the time of reformation came (Hebrews 9) just before he declared the demonstration was finished he walked out of the temple made with hands for the last time declaring by his action used as a parable the words he spoke made lieless stonest desolate. (no value in pleasing God ).

He never entered it again having been made desolate. We are the living temple of God always have been. God does not live in temples made with corrupted human hands as if he needed anything from the clay he is forming. .

That period of time used as a parable came to an end. . it as it is written (sola scriptura) is still doing it works of reforming the believers new heart from faith to faith again as it is written .

Matthew 23: 38-39 and Mathew 24 :1-3 working together . . .the context.

Matthew 23: 38-39 King James Version (KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

To show through his action as a parable he departed. The disciples not understanding the parable must of thought he had his eyes closed or he was blind. Many times he hid the meaning to teach them how to walk by faith mixing the things seen like the high mountain, the Mount of Olives to represent all the kingdoms of the world. The place of hidden glory.

Mathew 24 :1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No sign as a wonder was given. Sign of the times history repeating itself because of moral issues, yes.

Some say when the last stone was thrown down.? All of the stones were made desolate when he uttered the words , “your house is left unto you desolate”

I don't get the string of verses you've woven together, and I agree this is a peripheral issue rather than central to the faith. However, it's an interesting topic to me.

I'm not sure I understand how Matt. 23 ties in to that singular individual who is said to be the perpetrator of that abomination of desolation as portrayed by not only Daniel, but also Jesus. The Lord was speaking in future tense, and Israel had no kings from that time forward.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The palace of the kings was never called a "holy place" so far as I have ever heard or read, until now. The perspective you're talking about sounds like Amillennialism. Is that your take on the scriptures?

MM
 
I don't get the string of verses you've woven together, and I agree this is a peripheral issue rather than central to the faith. However, it's an interesting topic to me.

I'm not sure I understand how Matt. 23 ties in to that singular individual who is said to be the perpetrator of that abomination of desolation as portrayed by not only Daniel, but also Jesus. The Lord was speaking in future tense, and Israel had no kings from that time forward.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The palace of the kings was never called a "holy place" so far as I have ever heard or read, until now. The perspective you're talking about sounds like Amillennialism. Is that your take on the scriptures?

MM


I would offer Mathew 23 marks the end of the period used as a parable . Kings in Israel an abomination of desolation. The time of reformation had come it restored the government of faith back to before there were kings in Israel . Destroying both the image (stones) and what it represented ( faithless evil)

The abomination that causes desolation did make the word of God to no effect. (desolate) Its used that way in other areas .

The word of God , called the book of the law moved the Spirit of Christ that worked in King Josiah to make the abomination of desolation desolte. Rendering its own self desolate of power to know God .

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, (necromancy) and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord

A few other verses that I think support how to define abomination of desolation and how it relates to Kings,fathers, princes( a hiearchy govement ) out of sight out of mind no faith)

2 Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel.

Daniel 9:27 [Full Chapter]
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"Shall be poured upon the desolate".. . You could say making desolate that which made the word of God without efefct both the imge and waht it represented . In that way no man cane serve two teaching masters .One seen the temporal. .the other eternal faith .
 
I would offer Mathew 23 marks the end of the period used as a parable . Kings in Israel an abomination of desolation. The time of reformation had come it restored the government of faith back to before there were kings in Israel . Destroying both the image (stones) and what it represented ( faithless evil)

The abomination that causes desolation did make the word of God to no effect. (desolate) Its used that way in other areas .

The word of God , called the book of the law moved the Spirit of Christ that worked in King Josiah to make the abomination of desolation desolte. Rendering its own self desolate of power to know God .

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, (necromancy) and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord

A few other verses that I think support how to define abomination of desolation and how it relates to Kings,fathers, princes( a hiearchy govement ) out of sight out of mind no faith)

2 Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel.

Daniel 9:27 [Full Chapter]
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"Shall be poured upon the desolate".. . You could say making desolate that which made the word of God without efefct both the imge and waht it represented . In that way no man cane serve two teaching masters .One seen the temporal. .the other eternal faith .

Something I noticed is that the references you provided do not speak of the same (singular) man who perpetrates the abomination of desolation in the temple holy place. It is written that a woman who is divorced, remarries, and then returns to the first husband, has committed what is an abomination before the Lord.

What I'm getting at is that the mere mention of abominations throughout various of the scriptures are not the same thing as that one event where the abomination of desolation is concerned. I don't see that those verses allow for the expansion of that one event by that one man, in that one place, can be smeared across all other verses that make mention of "abomination."

If I may, when others teach us a spiritualized meaning behind what is clearly more concrete than what they credit the text, I back off and consider the text as the higher authority than their teachings. I seek the Lord for His teaching above that of men. (1 John 2:27). I elevate no pastor's teaching above seeking out for myself what is written, and seeking the Spirit of the Lord for His instruction, correction, rebuke, and truth.

So, the remaining question is, what have you done to verify what you appear to be saying. If I've misunderstood your grammar, then I welcome your clarifications.

Thank you.

MM
 
My thought is that God told us the secret of an aspect of our
design and that we need to take one day to rest from our
work and which day doesn't matter. Sunday or Wednesday
is just fine with Him and also meet with other believers any
time and in any quantity. The church building concept just
threw it all together and worked for awhile but now silly doctrine
defines the church organization and everyone wants something different.
Not really fellowship, quantitatively speaking, any more but a
wrestling match of who is more right. If I don't walk away refreshed
and renewed after fellowship with a believer then perhaps I wasn't
gathered in His name but mine.
 
Something I noticed is that the references you provided do not speak of the same (singular) man who perpetrates the abomination of desolation in the temple holy place. It is written that a woman who is divorced, remarries, and then returns to the first husband, has committed what is an abomination before the Lord.

What I'm getting at is that the mere mention of abominations throughout various of the scriptures are not the same thing as that one event where the abomination of desolation is concerned. I don't see that those verses allow for the expansion of that one event by that one man, in that one place, can be smeared across all other verses that make mention of "abomination."

If I may, when others teach us a spiritualized meaning behind what is clearly more concrete than what they credit the text, I back off and consider the text as the higher authority than their teachings. I seek the Lord for His teaching above that of men. (1 John 2:27). I elevate no pastor's teaching above seeking out for myself what is written, and seeking the Spirit of the Lord for His instruction, correction, rebuke, and truth.

So, the remaining question is, what have you done to verify what you appear to be saying. If I've misunderstood your grammar, then I welcome your clarifications.

Thank you.

MM

Well.....I am just a simple minded old country boy. I do not know any secrets and absolutely NO ONE has to agree with anything I say.

In fact...I would prefer that everyone ignore what I say.....then do the work and study for yourself! But that is just me.

I would however say in down to earth simple North Alabama English that the phrase “abomination of desolation” refers to Matthew 24:15............
“So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.”

The reason Jesus said that is because of Daniel 9:27............
“He (A/C)will confirm a covenant with many for one week (a peroid of 7 ’seven. and CONTEXT demands that the 7 be YEARS) In the middle of the WEEK
( ’7 years - seven' ) he (A/C) will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

In 167 B.C. a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation.

In Matthew 24:15 Jesus was speaking about 200 years after the event in 167 BC above as it had already occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Every Bible scholar I know of interpreters believe that Jesus was referring to the Antichrist who will do something very similar to what Antiochus Epiphanies did. This is confirmed by the fact that some of what Daniel prophesied in Dan. 9:27 did not occur in 167 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanies. Antiochus did not confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years. It is the Antichrist who, in the end times, will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years and then break it by doing something similar to the abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.
 
It seems that we're mostly all in agreement, that the law is written in our inward parts.

Dare I say it, there is another aspect of all this that has been suggested in other forums, namely that the law written in our hearts by the Law Giver is precisely all the law of Moses. I personally find that hard to swallow given that the Lord narrowed all the law and the prophets down to two things; of which we all know what they are.

Needless to say, I didn't see a whole bunch of value in arguing that point with those who continue to hold to the return to the letter of the law. It's almost as if they had an on-going problem relating to spiritual things, and the spiritual idea that the law written in our hearts is a part of what is deeply ingrained within us through the new birth, and is therefore superior to the letter that kills in our ability to live it through Christ Jesus who fulfilled it perfectly.

MM
 
The abomination of desolation is yet to be seen when the anti-christ enters the temple and declares himself God, and to be worshipped by all the earth in the middle of the Tribulation (the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble).
so often we focus on end time events instead of the end time event that could take place at any day or time. the big Event next on the prophetic colander. is Christ coming back for the Church after that all hell will break lose on earth. the Church will be gone and the restrainer will not be around . . Bible prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak.. as the old preacher man use to say were one more day closer than we was yesterday
 
so often we focus on end time events instead of the end time event that could take place at any day or time. the big Event next on the prophetic colander. is Christ coming back for the Church after that all hell will break lose on earth. the Church will be gone and the restrainer will not be around . . Bible prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak.. as the old preacher man use to say were one more day closer than we was yesterday

There's one other event nobody knows when it will happen, which is the army from the north attacking Israel. They will destroy 5/6th of that force, with Israel having to spend about five or seven months burying all the dead on the other side of the river...which seems to indicate that those bodies will be contaminated by radioactivity and/or biological warfare. That sounds like it will be the Russians who get whooped in that war, like they were humiliated in Afghanistan with sticks and stones against their advanced war machines some 35 years ago or so. Remember that one?

MM
 
So, in consideration of the OP, have we determined the conclusion
of whether we abide by the law or if the Law abides in us.
the law is there and as paul wrote it is holy it saves the purpose Romans 8:2 2 laws the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:23
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
which law are we abiding under ?


 
There's one other event nobody knows when it will happen, which is the army from the north attacking Israel. They will destroy 5/6th of that force, with Israel having to spend about five or seven months burying all the dead on the other side of the river...which seems to indicate that those bodies will be contaminated by radioactivity and/or biological warfare. That sounds like it will be the Russians who get whooped in that war, like they were humiliated in Afghanistan with sticks and stones against their advanced war machines some 35 years ago or so. Remember that one?

MM
yes i remember but once again Christ return is the next event
 
the law is there and as paul wrote it is holy it saves the purpose Romans 8:2 2 laws the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:23​

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members​

which law are we abiding under ?​


Huh? o_O

The law can save one?

Please clarify. I think perhaps I'm not understanding your correctly.

MM
 
so often we focus on end time events instead of the end time event that could take place at any day or time. the big Event next on the prophetic colander. is Christ coming back for the Church after that all hell will break lose on earth. the Church will be gone and the restrainer will not be around . . Bible prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak.. as the old preacher man use to say were one more day closer than we was yesterday

You are correct and I in fact would be one of those old men!
 
There's one other event nobody knows when it will happen, which is the army from the north attacking Israel. They will destroy 5/6th of that force, with Israel having to spend about five or seven months burying all the dead on the other side of the river...which seems to indicate that those bodies will be contaminated by radioactivity and/or biological warfare. That sounds like it will be the Russians who get whooped in that war, like they were humiliated in Afghanistan with sticks and stones against their advanced war machines some 35 years ago or so. Remember that one?

MM
I hear you and that event is seen in Ezekiel 38.

There has been a lot of controversy over the years as to whether the Ez. 38 invasion will be before or after the Rapture.

Russia has a very large army right now in positioned in Georgia which is directly north of Jerusalem.

Also.......Turkey has built 5 dams on the Tigress River in the mountains of Turkey and they can stop all water flow through Iraq which would fullfill the Euphrates River drying up to make way for the Kings of the East.......China!

If you think about it......the A/C will make a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. Since there will be a conflict (Ez.38) it seems to me that a conflict would be the reason for a Peace Treaty that would then include giving Israel the ability to offer animal sacrifices again at a RE-Built temple.

Keep in mind that the Temple in the Old Test. for many years was a TENT so the construction could take place in days.

The Invasion (Ez.38), Rapture, A/C coming upon the Scene and a Peace treaty could take place with in a few weeks of each other. All those events would satisfy the teaching of a pre-tribulation "Gathering Away".
 
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