Church Worship Music

[boltardy]

Beautiful lyrics.
The welsh are quite renowned for their singing. I guess down in the mines they had great acoustics.

Sorry about this one but you are possibly getting into a misconception about Wales, at least if you are thinking coal mines.

South Wales had a lot of them and there were a couple in N E Wales (Gresford maybe the most famous - visit the link). Not saying there are not mines and quarries in my (once upon a time) area but they were slate mines, in older times copper mines...

Conwy (where I trid to give a picture of earlier) was once more of a fishing town... And Llandudno is mostly tourist industry (with I think still bits of manufacturing industry although I believe Hotpoint both in Llandudno Junction and further to the East were I once worked for them in Bodelwyddan has gone).

I tend to think of the N and S of Wales as different worlds.

Still, We would all know "Calon Lan".

 

[Euphemia]

I know some orthodox jewish congregations do NOT have musicians and worship the way you see in christian churches. They just have singing, those that do have musicians, are actually copying christian congregations. So...it cant be said that Jewish people all worshipped with loud instruments. maybe they just had loud voices.

Its the reformed synagogues that have the musicians.

God's instructions for his temple were for 24/7 musicians and singers.

 

[Euphemia]

Oh, no, I wouldn't claim that. Besides, I need to be in self-judgement, not looking at others and wondering what they might be thinking or not thinking. God will see to that. But it's my responsibility not to bring anything in which will indulge the flesh, in me or in others. That could be something as small as flowery language in prayer - embellishing my prayer with fancy phrases which I've though up, instead of just expressing what the Spirit has given me. I have to be on my guard to keep that sort of thing out. Of course, if the Spirit is not grieved, He helps to keep out the flesh, but I have to be completely dependent on His service in this way. The moment I stop depending on the Spirit and start to look to myself for resources, then the flesh is bound to get in.

Perhaps your idea of what is indulging the flesh is a bit skewed. Pure worship involves the whole person, which includes his fleshly body. We don't need to have fear about how that looks.

The Spirit and the Word are in full agreement, aren't they?

I don't know what this "Church of Christ" is, but I'm not affiliated with anything like that.

Your ideas and comments fall in line with the Church of Christ doctrine.

 

[Euphemia]

What does he lose? And what does God lose?

One who refuses to lift his hands in praise when he can do so misses out on the richness of blessing knowing that God is pleased and has entered into it with him.

And that is a loss... how? That's what I don't see any basis for. Are we not equipped fully by the Spirit to worship in spirit and in truth?

There is no loss, but there is great joy in worship when we can express it in as many ways as there are ways!

 

[Euphemia]

What's really emerging out of this is that we have to be very careful we don't get into bondage to these things earthly things, to the point of insisting on them. Really, it's subjection to the elements of the world again, ordinances by another name. If we say that worship isn't complete and full unless we have this and that, and unless we're doing this and that, then we really are in dreadful bondage. Not only that, it's effectively saying that the work of Christ and the service of the Holy Spirit are inadequate, and that we have to borrow from Jewish worship to make up the deficit. It may be legal to go about prohibiting things (and that's not what I'm proposing) but it's equally legal to insist on them as well. We have to be careful not to fall into one extreme in our keenness to get away from the other.

Well, I feel that's all there is to be said, on my part anyway. Thank you, brethren, for your patience.

I find it to be bondage to withhold from God what God has plainly gifted us with.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I don't think I said that singing has no place in God's house - that certainly wouldn't be a scriptural statement! We're exhorted to sing, and the Lord sets us the example in that He Himself sang, (while He never played a musical instrument). I believe singing will most definitely feature in the eternal scene. Even now, everyone can be united in singing. Not everyone can play a musical instrument, not everyone is naturally talented. But everyone can sing (maybe not tunefully or well as we would define it, as humans, but they can make a joyful sound), and the heart of every believer is capable of response to God. It unites us, and shows our equality before God.

As for special abilities and talents - there isn't any evidence of such abilities being used in the service of God in the New Testament, where Christian worship is described. The natural abilities we have are by no means wrong, and we can serve one another with them, but we can't worship God with what is natural. Worship comes from the heart, and it comes from what God Himself has placed in the heart - impressions of Himself. It is entirely of God. I've asked the question so many times on this thread - where, in the whole breadth and length of the New Testament, do we get even a hint of natural abilities or talents - however commendable - being used in the worship of God? I've brought in scripture after scripture, from the New and Old Testaments, to show the complete contrast between the earthly system shown in the Old Testament and the heavenly system shown in the New - nothing has been said which refutes those scriptures, or the way that I've presented them. No scriptural doctrine has been advanced and (and I don't say this lightly) distinctly unscriptural doctrine has been advanced. We don't need the scriptures to give us a mandate for everything that we do? We do not need the word of God? Does that ring true? It's a serious and dangerous assertion, I'm sure the brethren will agree.

We worship God and Love God with our whole being. This includes status and talents as well.
It is God who gives us these abilities and you better believe he expects us to use them for His glory.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Rock and roll is a worldly pursuit. I have never experienced rock and roll as an expression of worship.

Now Sister you know this statment you just made is NOT CORRECT AT ALL.
Jesus is your ROCK and it is how you ROLL - so there fore you have experienced.

 

[Penion]

Yes, and it an opinion that is congruent with what God teaches in His word. I am thankful for the freedom I have in Christ, and my worship of Him comes with no condemnation, but with His abundant joy and blessing, and brings me into His very presence.

Euphemia,

I am glad that God has rescued us from the days of the Gregorian Chant, aren't you?

 

[Cturtle]

Cturltle, you say I apply scripture wrongly and then apply some other scripture thats nothing to do with music in your own fashion. But you actually misused scripture in the first place by misquoting it.

Im sorry, I dont agree.

I apologize for offending you.
I pray that God will bless you abundantly

 

[Euphemia]

Now Sister you know this statment you just made is NOT CORRECT AT ALL.
Jesus is your ROCK and it is how you ROLL - so there fore you have experienced.
View attachment 1893

Oh, you are so RIGHT!

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia,

I am glad that God has rescued us from the days of the Gregorian Chant, aren't you?

Yep!!

 

[geralduk]

You have to do a study of the word "joy" as I said. One word that is sued in scripture is "rinnah", which is used in and means to shout with joy, and also there is another word, "simchah", which refers to joy as in glee or mirth, and then there is another Hebrew word for joy, "ranan", which means to cry out with a strident voice in joy. another word, in Hebrew used in scriptures for "joy" is "ספין", or giyl gul, which means to spin or twirl with exultation and joy, and refers to God doing so. There are several words used for joy, exultation, mirth, glee and rejoicing, and spinning, twirling or dancing is also a part of the expression of the emotion inherent in the meaning and use of the word.

English is so very limited, that it is no wonder that people cannot grasp the full extent of the joy of the Lord. This is why we need to study the scriptures in view of the original languages. I am so much in need of doing this more regularly, but I am ever so grateful to God for showing me about His joy through a study of the Hebrew.

All human language is "limited " Yet it pleases the weak and foolish things of this world to count the strong and the mighty.and in another place God has clothed his power in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be seen or known to be of God.
You say it is limited. Yet God has seen fit to use two languages more than any other to propagate His Word.Hebrews and English.and English has been proved tried and tested to be very flexible indeed.
Hebrew as also English can be as mistakenly interpreted as each other.
Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge yet still did not understand the scriotures; to the extent that he was in agreement with Stephens death and thought it was God's will.
The phrase e's etc or many of them also.
The full extent of the joy of the Lord is not known by the scriptures whether they be in English or Hebrew. Though they are the foundation for it.
but even as the foundations of a building are not the whole building but simply give it subsequent shape.
It is the Holy Spirit that quickens the heart and opens the eyes to what God has done and is doing that puts a joy in the heart so deep that no matter what the sorrow or grief we may go through there is still a joy like a fire burning and every so often it comes to the surface and is expressed,but it is or should always be in the eyes and heart.unless some unconfessed sin is present.

I reject utterly this growing idea in the church today that you need to understand the original languages to get the true understanding of Scripture,
God is neither English or Hebrew and if He speaks it is then what language.?
for what language did he speak when he said "let there be light"?
Is it not written that God humbles himself to speak to man?
Then I say HIS message remains the same and all it needs is an accurate translation.
If that is doubted possible.Then I draw your at entire to the Rosseta stone among other things.
In Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

If you

When Holy Spirit anoints a person to do a thing, it is done with excellence and He causes us to worship with abandon.

The criticisms against the use of anything in worship such as drums and other instruments and even technology is really just a fleshly criticism, not unlike the criticism that came from the mouth of David's wife, Michal, who offended God with her denunciation of David's worship with wild abandon and God cursed her womb for it.

Be careful of what you condemn!

James 5:9
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you [yourselves] may not be judged. Look! The Judge is [already] standing at the very door.

read carefully my post I did not say I was or a against musical instruments drums etc.
What I am against is heavy Rythm and drum beats that drive out thought and any or all things that are done to create an 'atmosphere ' that substitutes the presence of God.
When is see 'christian' rock concerts and they say the spirit is here. I have to ask myself yes;but what spirit?
God does not need smoke/incense, flashing lights/candles, etc,nor do the people of God,nor in very truth does the world.
But the world and fallen man needs something to feel alive,though in fact they are dead .
Football matches,extreme sports go someway to induce that feeling.
I would argue that such 'devices' as some churches are using is to the same end.
It is Christmas who is needed,man does not live by music alone but by the living Word of God,that proceedeth out of a his mouth.
In Christian
Gerald

 

[Grant Melville]

We worship God and Love God with our whole being. This includes status and talents as well.
It is God who gives us these abilities and you better believe he expects us to use them for His glory.

I think the apostle Paul would disagree with that - he counted his status and talents as filth. For him, only Christ would do, what was purely of Him, nothing of Paul.

This idea of using natural things in Christian worship has never been substantiated with a single scripture reference during the whole of this lengthy conversation. It's an idea which is completely absent from the New Testament. This doctrine is false, and really the conclusion of it is the denial of the all-sufficiency of Christ and the service of the Holy Spirit. If we need to add anything natural to what those divine Persons provide for the service of God, what They provide is insufficient. That is a blasphemous thought, and one that we can't entertain for a moment.

 

[boltardy]

I think the apostle Paul would disagree with that - he counted his status and talents as filth. For him, only Christ would do, what was purely of Him, nothing of Paul.

OK, here is a proposition. Paul probably had reached a state where he fully realised the limitations and weaknesses of himself. He knows he can't measure up to Jesus.

But he seems to also recognise that people are different and tries to make allowances. (see an earlier post of Klub's)

I'm may know where my own "comfort zones" exist (and belive me - I've been as sort of disaster to even experiencing the sort of pin drop twice with the silience and then standing ovation - I know the temptations music can be both in the ways of seeking audience approval and of in a limited way, musical competence.

But should one not want to learn they need to shut out their own "delusions of grandeur" out. Should one not try to give to God as best as they know how?

Should we really be writing legislature on this?

 

[Major]

Hi Major!

The heavenly chorus is always singing and praising God. I like songs from the hymnal: rock and roll seems out of place in my church. Do you use the hymnal in your church?

Yes sir! We are what is called a "Traditional Worship Church". We sing from the old fashioned hymnals using whatever instruments that anyone has been gifted to play but the words of the songs are always more important than the music used!

IMO, the Contemporary style focuses more attention to the song and the individual and beat than to the God of creation to which it should go. Now that is only MY opinion and it not gospel.

Again, in my opinion there is no such thing as Christian Rock and Roll. There is Christian music which is aimed at the worship of God and then there is Rock and Roll which is aimed at the SENSUEL part of man, not God. Again that is just me and I know a lot will disagree.

 

[Major]

I think the apostle Paul would disagree with that - he counted his status and talents as filth. For him, only Christ would do, what was purely of Him, nothing of Paul.

This idea of using natural things in Christian worship has never been substantiated with a single scripture reference during the whole of this lengthy conversation. It's an idea which is completely absent from the New Testament. This doctrine is false, and really the conclusion of it is the denial of the all-sufficiency of Christ and the service of the Holy Spirit. If we need to add anything natural to what those divine Persons provide for the service of God, what They provide is insufficient. That is a blasphemous thought, and one that we can't entertain for a moment.

I hear you and completely understand your thinking. However, do we agree that the Word of God includes ALL the Scriptures???

Then notice in these verses.........
Revelation 5:8-14 ......
" And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints".

Psalms 105:1-6.................
"Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! Let everything that has breath praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!"

 

[Grant Melville]

OK, here is a proposition. Paul probably had reached a state where he fully realised the limitations and weaknesses of himself. He knows he can't measure up to Jesus.

But he seems to also recognise that people are different and tries to make allowances. (see an earlier post of Klub's)

I'm may know where my own "comfort zones" exist (and belive me - I've been as sort of disaster to even experiencing the sort of pin drop twice with the silience and then standing ovation - I know the temptations music can be both in the ways of seeking audience approval and of in a limited way, musical competence.

But should one not want to learn they need to shut out their own "delusions of grandeur" out. Should one not try to give to God as best as they know how?

Should we really be writing legislature on this?

I think Paul had realised that nothing on this earth could possibly measure up to Christ. It's his estimation of that One that forms his view of everything else - all his status and education. The measure, the benchmark, is always Jesus, not ourselves.

"But surely I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all, and count them to be filth, that I may gain Christ..." (Philippians 3:8).

Paul does make allowances, but we have to see that this is in the sphere of everyday life - not in the service of God in the assembly. What is natural belongs to everyday life, things like eating and drinking. But we don't bring that into the service of God in the assembly. Paul had to take that up with the Corinthians, they were carnal, and as a result they were mixing up the natural with the spiritual.

"When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper. For each one in eating takes his *own* supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess. Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking? or do ye despise the assembly of God, and put to shame them who have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you? In this point I do not praise." - 1 Corinthians 11:20-22

Not everyone has this or that natural talent - are we going to put those to shame who are poor in that way, those who have not?

Paul also says this:

"But that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual:..." (1 Corinthians 15:46)

"But this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruptibility." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

These scriptures, and many others, show us that what's natural - what came first - has no place in spiritual worship. That's why none of the elements of Jewish worship are ever brought into Christian worship. The two are distinct. We get that teaching in Hebrews.

 

[Euphemia]

All human language is "limited " Yet it pleases the weak and foolish things of this world to count the strong and the mighty.

Where is this from?

You say it is limited. Yet God has seen fit to use two languages more than any other to propagate His Word.Hebrews and English.and English has been proved tried and tested to be very flexible indeed.

No, God has seen fit to use people.

Hebrew as also English can be as mistakenly interpreted as each other.

I have simply been saying that as there are SEVERAL words in Hebrew that are used to describe joy, there is only basically ONE in English. So, English is limited in expressing the concept of joy. It behooves a student of the word to investigate, and further, to not dig in as if one's simple English connotation is the be all and end all. That is foolish. After all the Lord admonishes us to study to find ourselves approved, to be able to rightly divide the word of truth.

Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge yet still did not understand the scriotures; to the extent that he was in agreement with Stephens death and thought it was God's will.

Unenlightened spirits can do that.

The full extent of the joy of the Lord is not known by the scriptures whether they be in English or Hebrew. Though they are the foundation for it.
but even as the foundations of a building are not the whole building but simply give it subsequent shape.
It is the Holy Spirit that quickens the heart and opens the eyes to what God has done and is doing that puts a joy in the heart so deep that no matter what the sorrow or grief we may go through there is still a joy like a fire burning and every so often it comes to the surface and is expressed,but it is or should always be in the eyes and heart.unless some unconfessed sin is present.

I reject utterly this growing idea in the church today that you need to understand the original languages to get the true understanding of Scripture,
God is neither English or Hebrew and if He speaks it is then what language.?
for what language did he speak when he said "let there be light"?
Is it not written that God humbles himself to speak to man?
Then I say HIS message remains the same and all it needs is an accurate translation.
If that is doubted possible.Then I draw your at entire to the Rosseta stone among other things.
In Christ
gerald

You reject the diligent study of the word, then? I am simply saying that we need to study the word and allow Holy Spirit to teach us. Are you against that?

You need to pick your battles, sir.

 

[Euphemia]

If you

read carefully my post I did not say I was or a against musical instruments drums etc.
What I am against is heavy Rythm and drum beats that drive out thought and any or all things that are done to create an 'atmosphere ' that substitutes the presence of God.

That's a ridiculous thing to be "against".

When is see 'christian' rock concerts and they say the spirit is here. I have to ask myself yes;but what spirit?

This is just critical judgment. I believe it is based in fear.

God does not need smoke/incense, flashing lights/candles, etc,nor do the people of God,nor in very truth does the world.
But the world and fallen man needs something to feel alive,though in fact they are dead .
Football matches,extreme sports go someway to induce that feeling.
I would argue that such 'devices' as some churches are using is to the same end.
It is Christmas who is needed,man does not live by music alone but by the living Word of God,that proceedeth out of a his mouth.

If you were a Manchester United fan, you'd be cheering robustly for your team when they play. Jesus deserves it more than they.