Church Worship Music

Aww i wish i knew welsh.
Thats beautiful.

I never been to any church that had harps. I kinda expected there would be, or at least zithers. I have a 10 string harp and also an acoustic guitar.

Most the churches i been to had rock guitars, amplifiers, sound system and keyboards and drums. One had shoved their piano into the backroom, they didnt use it anymore.
I dont fellowship there anymore. It was way too noisy for me.

Glad you like it Lanolin.

I don't speak Welsh at all. Probably the best opportunity I would have had was when we moved there when I was about 6 or 7. The Llandudo area is predominatantly English speaking but the nearby village I lived in at the time was mostly Welsh first language then. I used to think Welsh unimportant but changed my mind in later life. I've still never got as far as learning though.

To pick on another thing you mentioned in another post. I'm an ear player mostly of fretted strings (open playing in GDAE being my most familiar). My mother would probably have been grade 8 piano but things sort of clashed with her physiotherapy finals, then having me... We have a fair amount of common ground in tastes but approaches and what we can do are quite different.

On the subject of music in the church. I'm still finding it difficult to differentiate what may be matters of my own taste and traditional hymn leaning from what may be right or wrong...

Anyway, I've given it before but I'll leave you with a translation of Calon Lan:

I don't ask for a luxurious life,
the world's gold or its fine pearls,
I ask for a happy heart,
an honest heart, a pure heart.

A pure heart full of goodness
Is fairer than the pretty lily,
None but a pure heart can sing,
Sing in the day and sing in the night.


If I wished for worldly wealth,
It would swiftly go to seed;
The riches of a virtuous, pure heart
Will bear eternal profit.

(Chorus)
Evening and morning, my wish
Rising to heaven on the wing of song
For God, for the sake of my Saviour,
To give me a pure heart.

(Chorus)
 
Oh and a side comment, Lanolin.

I'm not that up on harps but I think that one in the video would be classed as a Clarsach lever harp. That one in the video (IF I'm right...) is essentially diatonic but you can change the semi tones by moving the levers on the top and the more skilful can raise their hands for an accidental while playing. I can poorly scratch out a slower single note folk melody on that type (the layout of notes feels natural to me - it's sort of like the white notes on piano) but getting from that to playing properly is a different matter.
 
Aww i wish i knew welsh.
Thats beautiful.

I never been to any church that had harps. I kinda expected there would be, or at least zithers. I have a 10 string harp and also an acoustic guitar.

Most the churches i been to had rock guitars, amplifiers, sound system and keyboards and drums. One had shoved their piano into the backroom, they didnt use it anymore.
I dont fellowship there anymore. It was way too noisy for me.

Heaven's going to be noisy. I hope you'll be able to cope.
 
I dont think judging what ppl eat is the same thing as discerning music.
I think its very important cause music is very influential and also, we need to beware that satan can seduce people through music. He likes to tickle ppls ears. After all, it was said that lucifer was a worship leader and used to be Gods special cherub in isaiah.

Judging music by a carnal measure is the same as judging people for what people eat.
 
I would like to challenge this statement
((Tongues are for unbelievers after all. That's very true... I don't think many people realise that. ))

So praying in the spirit then would be for un-believers ?
That statement makes no sense at all.
God Bless
Jim

I'm hesitant to get involved in this topic, because I know there's a warning about discussing it here on CFS, but the gift of tongues is really a gift of demonstration - praying in the Spirit is not. We can pray in the Spirit in privacy, but we don't hear of speaking in tongues in privacy. Speaking in tongues, which are then interpreted, is for edification of the body.
 
Singing has no place in Gods House ? Did I read this right ? If so that is a hoot.
The angles sing unto the Lord. The blessing taught David to pick and when david picked it drove deamons away.

God gives us all special abilities and talents and they are not listed in the bible - does this mean they are wrong ?
Grant if I have been mis-reading what you are saying then forgive me.
God Bless
Jim
I don't think I said that singing has no place in God's house - that certainly wouldn't be a scriptural statement! We're exhorted to sing, and the Lord sets us the example in that He Himself sang, (while He never played a musical instrument). I believe singing will most definitely feature in the eternal scene. Even now, everyone can be united in singing. Not everyone can play a musical instrument, not everyone is naturally talented. But everyone can sing (maybe not tunefully or well as we would define it, as humans, but they can make a joyful sound), and the heart of every believer is capable of response to God. It unites us, and shows our equality before God.

As for special abilities and talents - there isn't any evidence of such abilities being used in the service of God in the New Testament, where Christian worship is described. The natural abilities we have are by no means wrong, and we can serve one another with them, but we can't worship God with what is natural. Worship comes from the heart, and it comes from what God Himself has placed in the heart - impressions of Himself. It is entirely of God. I've asked the question so many times on this thread - where, in the whole breadth and length of the New Testament, do we get even a hint of natural abilities or talents - however commendable - being used in the worship of God? I've brought in scripture after scripture, from the New and Old Testaments, to show the complete contrast between the earthly system shown in the Old Testament and the heavenly system shown in the New - nothing has been said which refutes those scriptures, or the way that I've presented them. No scriptural doctrine has been advanced and (and I don't say this lightly) distinctly unscriptural doctrine has been advanced. We don't need the scriptures to give us a mandate for everything that we do? We do not need the word of God? Does that ring true? It's a serious and dangerous assertion, I'm sure the brethren will agree.
 
I have a question for you. If you had a bunch of people that you just pulled off of the streets, and you are trying to convince them that Being a Christian is not a drag or boring and stuffy, and they were used to loud music and partying, dancing and such.....do you think that orderly praise and worship with the ability of dancing and using all of the people's senses would encourage them to come back?

It's certainly a good question. Firstly, I wouldn't go about trying to convince these people - unbelievers, I assume? - of anything at all, because I'd surely fail! The most gifted orator - which I'm certainly not - would fail. All I can do is preach the gospel, point them to Christ. When I say 'all', I don't mean it in a diminutive sense, I mean that that's the only thing I can do, the only thing I can say to them! And if they hadn't been given faith and the Spirit wasn't working with them to bring them to Christ, then I doubt anything would bring them back. If they want sensuous pleasures, they can go to one-hundred-and-one other places within a stone's throw, where every natural desire is catered for and no-one is telling them that they're a sinner and they need a Saviour. If they want entertainment they can get it.

I do think that if an unbeliever walked in a place and saw something quite unlike what they see in the world, it would certainly make them stop and think. Say that they walked into a room that was plain and unadorned with any craft or fabrication of man, no pictures or stained glass. There's no appealing music, no band or orchestra. There's no man or men in special clothes, standing up on a stage directing things. There's no computer apparatus, no presentations or videos. Say that all they saw was a group of men, women, boys and girls, perhaps reading the scriptures, perhaps listening to one another speak, perhaps praying, singing hymns and songs together - and they saw and heard the joy and exuberance of their singing, their language in prayer, the relish with which they enjoyed what comes out in inquiry into the Scriptures together. Perhaps the incomer stayed and watched how the brethren greeted one another after the meeting, which such evident love, so completely at rest. Then, the unbeliever might have to think to themselves - what are these people enjoying? There's no beautiful art, there's no tuneful music, there's no apparent leadership or direction, there's no technological addition - why are they enjoying themselves so much? They might go away, shaking their head at these deluded fanatics all the same, but they certainly would go out with an impression of seeing something the like of which wasn't common in the places of entertainment of the world.

If churches don't minister to the sick and dying (spiritually and physically) which was the original reason why Jesus came in the first place, then they will either just die in their sin or go somewhere they can be fed in all ways. If they die in their sin....someone in the church will be held accountable. And praise is one of the main things things that ushers in the Holy Spirit....for the Bible says that God inhabits the praises of His People.
I agree with that. But I would question the suggestion that anyone can be fed in all ways in a place - if I'm picking up your meaning correctly. One can't feed the flesh and the spirit at the same time - one can't sow to the Spirit and to the flesh simultaneously.

All throughout the Bible we see that the Israelites celebrated and praised God with everything that they had, and many, many instruments. They were loud and of one accord. And God was pleased....because in all honesty He desired praise instead of sacrifice.

Just something to think about :)
I think we need to qualify that statement, "All throughout the Bible". In the Old Testament, we see God praised in that way. And we see that God values obedience and hearkening more than sacrifice: "Has Jehovah delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, As in hearkening to the voice of Jehovah? Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, Attention than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22). This is definitely a word to us today. Are we waiting on the voice of Jehovah, prepared to be subject, obedient? Or are we rushing to do whatever pleases us, without the mandate of the Word.
 
I have thought of asking the same thing! Reading your post, the verse that kept playing over and over in my mind is this:

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
I think you're suggesting that "lively stones" means that we should be vigorously physically active. The much more common translation of those words is "living stones". "Living" does suggest movement - dead stones are about as lifeless as one can possibly get! But it's spiritual movement, not, I would suggest, dancing and leaping about while in church.

I very much admire the faith of Eric Liddell, who was, among other things, an athlete. As many of us who've seen the film 'Chariots of Fire' will know, he refused to run on a Sunday, forgoing the chance of Olympic glory and bearing reproach because of it. Mr Liddell said that God made him fast, so he glorified God by running. There, I have to disagree with him, because the scripture says that "bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but piety is profitable for everything, having promise of life, of the present one, and of that to come." (1 Timothy 4:8). We don't have to get up and dance to demonstrate that we have life. Not everyone can dance - and not everyone is fast - but every believer can demonstrate that they have life.
 
Everything that aids in worship is useful to us and available to us, and is not inherently evil.
I have posed this question before, but it wasn't answered, so I hope the brethren will forgive my repeating it - how does what we do with our hands aid our worship? If I sit still and worship, how is that any less of a response to God than if I get up and dance? How does that effect what flows from my heart in response to God? Again, I'm not trying to be facetious, not in the least.

It is only human religion that corrals worship, when in heaven it is unrestrained, and should be for us.
I quite agree. Human religion comes in many forms though, and most of them are marked by addition, innovation, and going beyond the authority of the scriptures. The religious person is like a caddisfly, encased in a protective shell of their own making. Yet the shell is made of bits of worthless detritus.

For those of you who criticize lively worship of God when Christians come together, you won't like heaven much.
Again, I absolutely agree with that statement. But I think our conceptions of lively worship are quite different.

I don't want to speak about myself, and I don't want the brethren to think that I'm holding myself up as some sort of example - that's the last thing I want to do. But I will speak a little about my own experiences. When I gather with the brethren to worship, it's a very lively occasion. It's not noisy, there's no music playing, people aren't dancing. Nonetheless, it is powerfully, immensely, gloriously, lively! The exultation I feel in my soul is immense, my heart rises in response to God, delighted and enraptured. I know my brethren feel the same as I hear them sing and pray and speak about the truth. The word 'quickened' (as in 'quickened with the Christ', Ephesians 2:5), I believe means something like 'made lively', made living. That is what characterises worship in Spirit, in my experience. The word itself, quick, it suggests something fresh, active, imperative, leaping into action! That is how I experience worship, and I can't conceive of it being better than that - it is purely of God, wonderfully so. It will be better, no doubt, as I grow in the knowledge of God, as my vision and heart is expanded Godward. I am set, one of the strings of a harp, among many brethren, and the Holy Spirit plays on those strings with the expertise of a divine Person, drawing from this one and that one the note that He requires for the perfect worship melody. That is a realisation of the type of the many musical instruments of the Old Testament, of the old system - the antitype is the saints themselves. If we apply those Old Testament scriptures literally, then we lose the wonderful spiritual meaning of them. We, in essence, settle for less - enjoying the type and not the antitype, the anticipation rather than the realisation.
 
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I'm hesitant to get involved in this topic, because I know there's a warning about discussing it here on CFS, but the gift of tongues is really a gift of demonstration - praying in the Spirit is not. We can pray in the Spirit in privacy, but we don't hear of speaking in tongues in privacy. Speaking in tongues, which are then interpreted, is for edification of the body.

Praying in the Spirit and singing in the Spirit, according to Paul, is praying and singing in tongues, and these manifestations are not subject to interpretation, as it is not God speaking to the congregation, but it is the Spirit speaking to God through us.
 
When Holy Spirit anoints a person to do a thing, it is done with excellence and He causes us to worship with abandon.
Euphemia, dear sister, you make reference quite often to the Holy Spirit anointing natural abilities. Could you provide a scriptural basis for that doctrine, please?

You speak about worshipping with abandon. I know how that feels, to be totally caught up in blissful occupation with God! But I think, in practice, our concept of that might differ, again. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul talks about prophesy, and how if one person is speaking and another gets a revelation, the first person should be silent and make way for the next. He finishes those instructions by saying, "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33) Does that sound like an scene of abandon, with people milling around, shouting and singing and talking all at once? Paul also writes to the Corinthians to say "Let all things be done to edification." ( Corinthians 14:26). Are all things being done to edification when people are being drowned out by others who are apparently "worshipping with abandon"? That's the danger of mixing up things of the flesh with spiritual things. Letting our emotions run high and indulging our natural desires doesn't contribute one bit to worship, and can really get in the way of edification.
 
we can't worship God with what is natural.

Colossians 3:23
And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men

Worship comes from the heart, and it comes from what God Himself has placed in the heart - impressions of Himself. It is entirely of God. I've asked the question so many times on this thread - where, in the whole breadth and length of the New Testament, do we get even a hint of natural abilities or talents - however commendable - being used in the worship of God?

There is nothing in all of scripture that teaches us that the use of musical instruments is not of God, for He has ordained singing and the playing of all manner of musical instruments to be carried out PERPETUALLY, DAY AND NIGHT in His house since the beginning. It is some legalistic and errant person or group that has developed a misguided fantasy that has influenced many gullible people to wrongly believe that if it isn't mentioned it is not acceptable to God---but it is.

I've brought in scripture after scripture, from the New and Old Testaments, to show the complete contrast between the earthly system shown in the Old Testament and the heavenly system shown in the New - nothing has been said which refutes those scriptures, or the way that I've presented them.

You have not shown anything of the kind.

No scriptural doctrine has been advanced and (and I don't say this lightly) distinctly unscriptural doctrine has been advanced. We don't need the scriptures to give us a mandate for everything that we do? We do not need the word of God? Does that ring true? It's a serious and dangerous assertion, I'm sure the brethren will agree.

The discouragement of worship of any kind using instruments is a false doctrine of men.
 
I think you're suggesting that "lively stones" means that we should be vigorously physically active. The much more common translation of those words is "living stones". "Living" does suggest movement - dead stones are about as lifeless as one can possibly get! But it's spiritual movement, not, I would suggest, dancing and leaping about while in church.

I very much admire the faith of Eric Liddell, who was, among other things, an athlete. As many of us who've seen the film 'Chariots of Fire' will know, he refused to run on a Sunday, forgoing the chance of Olympic glory and bearing reproach because of it. Mr Liddell said that God made him fast, so he glorified God by running. There, I have to disagree with him, because the scripture says that "bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but piety is profitable for everything, having promise of life, of the present one, and of that to come." (1 Timothy 4:8). We don't have to get up and dance to demonstrate that we have life. Not everyone can dance - and not everyone is fast - but every believer can demonstrate that they have life.

While Liddell could have run on Sundays, he was right in that what he chose to do with his ability was to glorify God, and He was glorified!

If you have two working legs---or even just one---you can dance before the Lord. Even people in wheelchairs dance before the Lord.
 
I have posed this question before, but it wasn't answered, so I hope the brethren will forgive my repeating it - how does what we do with our hands aid our worship? If I sit still and worship, how is that any less of a response to go than if I get up and dance? How does that effect what flows from my heart in response to God? Again, I'm not trying to be facetious, not in the least.

Raising your hands to God is an act of worship that reveals submission and praise to Him. God doesn't call us to sit still. he doesn't sit still over us. He revels in our worship.

If one is truly worshiping in the Spirit, one is not about to sit quietly to do it. It involves every part of our being.

Again, I absolutely agree with that statement. But I think our conceptions of lively worship are quite different.

I don't want to speak about myself, and I don't want the brethren to think that I'm holding myself up as some sort of example - that's the last thing I want to do. But I will speak a little about my own experiences. When I gather with the brethren to worship, it's a very lively occasion. It's not noisy, there's no music playing, people aren't dancing. Nonetheless, it is powerfully, immensely, gloriously, lively! The exultation I feel in my soul is immense, my heart rises in response to God, delighted and enraptured. I know my brethren feel the same as I hear them sing and pray and speak about the truth. The word 'quickened' (as in 'quickened with the Christ', Ephesians 2:5), I believe means something like 'made lively', made living. That is what characterises worship in Spirit, in my experience. The word itself, quick, it suggests something fresh, active, imperative, leaping into action! That is how I experience worship, and I can't conceive of it being better than that - it is purely of God, wonderfully so. It will be better, no doubt, as I grow in the knowledge of God, as my vision and heart is expanded Godward. I am set, one of the strings of a harp, among many brethren, and the Holy Spirit plays on those strings with the expertise of a divine Person, drawing from this one and that one the note that He requires for the perfect worship melody. That is a realisation of the type of the many musical instruments of the Old Testament, of the old system - the antitype is the saints themselves. If we apply those Old Testament scriptures literally, then we lose the wonderful spiritual meaning of them. We, in essence, settle for less - enjoying the type and not the antitype, the anticipation rather than the realisation.

You are talking about style of worship, but to declare the use of musical instruments in worship as wrong or that their use brings loss of any kind, is complete error and born out of a legalistic spirit. That you deny the full use of music in worship is YOUR loss and of course, God is blessed by the heart of worship, but the heart that denies God anything is missing out on the wonderful blessing of touching the heart of God, fully.
 
Euphemia, dear sister, you make reference quite often to the Holy Spirit anointing natural abilities. Could you provide a scriptural basis for that doctrine, please?

You speak about worshipping with abandon. I know how that feels, to be totally caught up in blissful occupation with God! But I think, in practice, our concept of that might differ, again. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul talks about prophesy, and how if one person is speaking and another gets a revelation, the first person should be silent and make way for the next. He finishes those instructions by saying, "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33) Does that sound like an scene of abandon, with people milling around, shouting and singing and talking all at once? Paul also writes to the Corinthians to say "Let all things be done to edification." ( Corinthians 14:26). Are all things being done to edification when people are being drowned out by others who are apparently "worshipping with abandon"? That's the danger of mixing up things of the flesh with spiritual things. Letting our emotions run high and indulging our natural desires doesn't contribute one bit to worship, and can really get in the way of edification.

The concept of that shouldn't differ between believers. Perhaps your indoctrination has clouded your perception of what is true.

It is displeasing to God to be so dogmatic about this topic.

When the Body of Christ comes together to worship fully, heaven makes a visit. There is no room for the flesh.

I've already said that God blesses people with natural abilities to be used for His purposes. He used singers and craftsmen, skilled in music and art, and goldsmiths, silversmiths and metalworkers to perform His creative tasks. He also used people gifted in sewing to make garments of those serving in His temple. These are all among many natural abilities that Holy Spirit quickened to life in many people to serve God and bring worship to Him! He continues to do these things today in the Church.
 
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And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men
I think we have to look at the context of that scripture. I have the whole passage printed on a card on my desk at work. It begins: "Bondmen, obey in all things your masters according to flesh..." (Colossians 3:22). Here, Paul is speaking about our responsibilities as workers, working perhaps for unbelieving people. This has nothing to do with the worship of God in the assembly. I have that card on my desk to remind me that I need to work as hard as I can and do my best for my employer, not thinking about whether or not they'll appreciate my work, but knowing that the Lord is taking account of my obedience to Him. "Whatsoever ye do, labour at it heartily, as doing it to the Lord, and not to men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the recompense of the inheritance; ye serve the Lord Christ." (Colossians 3:23-24). I might work as hard as I can, and my human employer might not appreciate it. I shouldn't let that discourage me, or use that as an excuse to slack off or not try, because if I do my best in spite of a lack of human praise and encouragement, then there's glory to God in that. Not in the work itself necessarily, but in the spirit with which I do the work, the way I conduct myself in my life. People see the Christian, how he behaves differently from other men. That's because he has his eyes on a higher prize than they do. The recompense of the inheritance is something which is totally apart from these earthly labours. I might work hard all year and then be passed over for a bonus or a salary increase. I shouldn't let that discourage me! I have treasure in heaven, a heavenly inheritance. If I keep my eye on the Christ, then nothing down here should knock me or discourage me.

There is nothing in all of scripture that teaches us that the use of musical instruments is not of God, for He has ordained singing and the playing of all manner of musical instruments to be carried out PERPETUALLY, DAY AND NIGHT in His house since the beginning. It is some legalistic and errant person or group that has developed a misguided fantasy that has influenced many gullible people to wrongly believe that if it isn't mentioned it is not acceptable to God---but it is.
God set on physical instruments to be played when He had a physical house. Now the house is spiritual. Aren't the instruments spiritual as well? It would seem so, from all we see of worship described in the New Testament.
 
I think we have to look at the context of that scripture. I have the whole passage printed on a card on my desk at work. It begins: "Bondmen, obey in all things your masters according to flesh..." (Colossians 3:22). Here, Paul is speaking about our responsibilities as workers, working perhaps for unbelieving people. This has nothing to do with the worship of God in the assembly. I have that card on my desk to remind me that I need to work as hard as I can and do my best for my employer, not thinking about whether or not they'll appreciate my work, but knowing that the Lord is taking account of my obedience to Him. "Whatsoever ye do, labour at it heartily, as doing it to the Lord, and not to men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the recompense of the inheritance; ye serve the Lord Christ." (Colossians 3:23-24). I might work as hard as I can, and my human employer might not appreciate it. I shouldn't let that discourage me, or use that as an excuse to slack off or not try, because if I do my best in spite of a lack of human praise and encouragement, then there's glory to God in that. Not in the work itself necessarily, but in the spirit with which I do the work, the way I conduct myself in my life. People see the Christian, how he behaves differently from other men. That's because he has his eyes on a higher prize than they do. The recompense of the inheritance is something which is totally apart from these earthly labours. I might work hard all year and then be passed over for a bonus or a salary increase. I shouldn't let that discourage me! I have treasure in heaven, a heavenly inheritance. If I keep my eye on the Christ, then nothing down here should knock me or discourage me.


God set on physical instruments to be played when He had a physical house. Now the house is spiritual. Aren't the instruments spiritual as well? It would seem so, from all we see of worship described in the New Testament.

To some people whose calling is to lead worship God in the sanctuary, he must do it heartily unto the Lord. This instruction is for us all to do all things heartily unto the Lord.
 
Raising your hands to God is an act of worship that reveals submission and praise to Him. God doesn't call us to sit still. he doesn't sit still over us. He revels in our worship.

If one is truly worshiping in the Spirit, one is not about to sit quietly to do it. It involves every part of our being.
Please, can you provide a scriptural basis for this.

There is a brother locally who is paraplegic, he's paralysed from the shoulders down and has been so for over thirty years. This brother can't raise his hands, and can't dance either. Is he in any way restricted in his worship because of his physical disability?

You are talking about style of worship, but to declare the use of musical instruments in worship as wrong or that their use brings loss of any kind, is complete error and born out of a legalistic spirit. That you deny the full use of music in worship is YOUR loss and of course, God is blessed by the heart of worship, but the heart that denies God anything is missing out on the wonderful blessing of touching the heart of God, fully.
I think we need to pursue this idea to its conclusion... if a group of believers come together, and none of them are able to play a musical instrument, then their worship is somehow impaired? Their worship is not as full as another group of believers who can all play musical instruments?
 
God set on physical instruments to be played when He had a physical house. Now the house is spiritual. Aren't the instruments spiritual as well? It would seem so, from all we see of worship described in the New Testament.

That is only your indoctrination speaking. We have a physical house where we come together to worship God with our voices and with our music and with our whole bodies.
 
To some people whose calling is to lead worship God in the sanctuary, he must do it heartily unto the Lord. This instruction is for us all to do all things heartily unto the Lord.
That may be true, but this particular scripture is about obeying our masters according to flesh - our earthly masters. It isn't about the service of God.
 
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