Church Worship Music

Grant Melville said:
The pleasure of God is entirely bound up with Christ. We have to see this. We won't get an appreciation of what God appreciates if we're always looking at ourselves, looking for ways to use what natural abilities we have to make an offering to God. It's only by looking steadfastly on Jesus that we get something that is a suitable offering. The more we look at Jesus, the more we disappear in our own estimation, the more He grows in our appreciation until He fills our gaze completely and nothing of self remains. John the Baptist was an example of someone who had disappeared in his own estimation. When asked "Who art thou?" he answers, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness..." (John 1:22-23). He is nothing in his own eyes, just a voice. He had a full appreciation of "He who comes after me". He wouldn't've been indignant when his disciples left him to follow after Jesus. The humility and self-denial of John was no affectation. The consciousness of the peerless worth of Christ was all that he valued.
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It's odd that your refutation of instruments in worship hinges on your understanding of the OT, yet you declare the Psalms and the INSTRUCTIONS therein concerning physical worship as now defunct.

God is the giver, and He gives His children abilities and skills with which to worship Him---physically. True worship of God involves the WHOLE person...not just the spirit.
 
Euphemia said:
It's odd that your refutation of instruments in worship hinges on your understanding of the OT, yet you declare the Psalms and the INSTRUCTIONS therein concerning physical worship as now defunct.

God is the giver, and He gives His children abilities and skills with which to worship Him---physically. True worship of God involves the WHOLE person...not just the spirit.
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As far as I can claim to understand the scripture, the Old Testament and the New Testament both confirm it. After all, we can't hope to understand the Old Testament unless we look at it in the light the New. The Psalms are very instructive, and we get the full instruction of them when we understanding their typical teaching. So much of the inward feelings of the Lord Jesus are revealed, prophetically, in the Psalms. If we're to attribute those feelings to the writer of the Psalm, then we lose out on a great deal. The same goes for all the types of the Old Testament. If we literally apply the offerings, or the tabernacle, we lose out on a great deal of wonderful truth connected with the Person of the Lord Jesus. Instruments in the Old Testament are often typical of the saints, of us. We are the instruments of praise, made by the true David for the praise of God. We have a great range of tones and notes, spiritually speaking. The Holy Spirit tunes the instruments of divine praise. Perhaps suffering, chastening, is required in the pathway of a believer, corresponding to the tautening of a string. Slack strings produce very little response, and I think tightening is needed at some point in the life of every believer so that the response to God will be full. I have no difficulty in seeing the whole range of instruments among my local brethren. Everything is there for the praise of God, in the saints themselves. The work of Christ is all-sufficient.
 
We need to adhere to God's instructions regarding worship, and they are expressed through David. Instruments are fine with God. They are NOT fine with those who seek to be instructed by the letter, as legalists do. Spiritualizing everything is also a problem.
 
Grant Melville said:
But, having said that, there are other elements of Jewish worship that have been borrowed, in Christendom. The altar is one - many church buildings have a physical altar, despite there being no sanction of that in the New Testament. Much is made of church buildings themselves, which are very decadent and frequently 'consecrated', a notion that has no place in Christianity. Some systems have a distinct ordained priesthood, i.e. clericalism, another element borrowed from Judaism. This is all part of the same Judaizing influence which is at work throughout Christendom.
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Hmmm, i would say don't be too quick to say that...
Once a Premise is slippery, and when it fell down the slope giving Unrealistic conclusions….

Am not sure it was borrowed from Judaism…I would say it was borrowed from REALITY…
The REALITY is there child being born and children growing up: they need to have “Father” and “Mother”….
Same goes in “Religious” system: there are new ones that need to have “Father” and “Mother”…..

And as I observe: the Secular world have more defined, more in order in setting up responsibility and accountability for Parenting...
I think maybe because in Secular world, the judgment is in the now, Authority, divinely given to Man....

Unlike on Theological Matters, once a human Master/ Teacher is wrong, I haven't heard of one being sued/judge upon.... most likely James is referring to the next life.....

James 3:1New King James Version (NKJV)
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
 
aha said:
Unlike on Theological Matters, once a human Master/ Teacher is wrong, I haven't heard of one being sued/judge upon.... most likely James is referring to the next life.....

James 3:1New King James Version (NKJV)
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
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On the second thought, i think yes, there are human Teacher on Theological matters that are being sued/judge by their teachings and practices: being sued for loss of life and properties....
 
Euphemia said:
We need to adhere to God's instructions regarding worship, and they are expressed through David. Instruments are fine with God. They are NOT fine with those who seek to be instructed by the letter, as legalists do. Spiritualizing everything is also a problem.
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Aren't God's instructions for Christian worship expressed through the Lord Jesus Himself, and the apostles? If we take our lead from them, we get a wholly different picture. As I've pointed out before, the Lord never played a musical instrument that we know of, but He did sing.

Legality is in the application of a principle, rather than in the principle itself. It's convenient to use the word 'legalism' to describe any insistence on fidelity to the word of God, but really we have to be careful when we use that term.
 
aha said:
Hmmm, i would say don't be too quick to say that...
Once a Premise is slippery, and when it fell down the slope giving Unrealistic conclusions….

Am not sure it was borrowed from Judaism…I would say it was borrowed from REALITY…
The REALITY is there child being born and children growing up: they need to have “Father” and “Mother”….
Same goes in “Religious” system: there are new ones that need to have “Father” and “Mother”…..

And as I observe: the Secular world have more defined, more in order in setting up responsibility and accountability for Parenting...
I think maybe because in Secular world, the judgment is in the now, Authority, divinely given to Man....

Unlike on Theological Matters, once a human Master/ Teacher is wrong, I haven't heard of one being sued/judge upon.... most likely James is referring to the next life.....

James 3:1New King James Version (NKJV)
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Click to expand...

Sorry, aha, I'm not quite following you - are you saying that clericalism is necessary to the practical order of Christianity?
 
Euphemia said:
We need to adhere to God's instructions regarding worship, and they are expressed through David. Instruments are fine with God. They are NOT fine with those who seek to be instructed by the letter, as legalists do. Spiritualizing everything is also a problem.
Click to expand...
I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think we really discussed it. If we don't literally apply the divine instructions as to the tabernacle, or the offerings, or the priestly garments, or the exclusive priesthood, then why do we apply the instruments and the dancing literally? Isn't that just picking and choosing what appeals to us naturally?
 
Grant Melville said:
Aren't God's instructions for Christian worship expressed through the Lord Jesus Himself, and the apostles? If we take our lead from them, we get a wholly different picture. As I've pointed out before, the Lord never played a musical instrument that we know of, but He did sing.

Legality is in the application of a principle, rather than in the principle itself. It's convenient to use the word 'legalism' to describe any insistence on fidelity to the word of God, but really we have to be careful when we use that term.
Click to expand...

David has been inspired to write about how to worship. We need to really take what he has said that God desires and revels in...and apply it. As the apostles and the first churches carried on the manner of worship from their Judaism and NOT taught anything other than the same, I do believe you have created your own humanly reasoned doctrine that counters God's ways for His Church.

Pointing out that you think that Jesus never played an instrument is a logical fallacy.

I am very careful concerning using the term, "legalism", and in this case, it fits like a glove.
 
Grant Melville said:
I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think we really discussed it. If we don't literally apply the divine instructions as to the tabernacle, or the offerings, or the priestly garments, or the exclusive priesthood, then why do we apply the instruments and the dancing literally? Isn't that just picking and choosing what appeals to us naturally?
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Singing, playing music, performing art and dancing are all moves of the Holy Spirit on submitting people. We do these things because of Him.

What you are doing is advocating the removal of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and performing according to one's human or natural dictates. He can't get through rigidity.

Psalm 30:11
You turned my wailing into dancing;
you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy,

Psalm 149
Praise the Lord.

Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of his faithful people.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.
3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with timbrel and harp.
4 For the Lord takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with victory.
5 Let his faithful people rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

6 May the praise of God be in their mouths
and a double-edged sword in their hands,
7 to inflict vengeance on the nations
and punishment on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with fetters,
their nobles with shackles of iron,
9 to carry out the sentence written against them—
this is the glory of all his faithful people.

Praise the Lord.
 
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Grant Melville said:
Sorry, aha, I'm not quite following you - are you saying that clericalism is necessary to the practical order of Christianity?
Click to expand...

Clericalism? Definitely not good, unhealthy, it missed the point of the function....

But the phrase prior before that: Ordained Priesthood…
Let us define the terms: Ordained Priesthood to my understanding :

Ordained: designated, appointed
Priesthood: Priest or Presbyters in Catholics, Minister, Pastor or Elder in Protestants….

I would be surprised if the Church you belong to does not have such?

There is difference between Ordained Priesthood and Clericalism:
The "ism" in it sound similar to Legal vs. Legalism…. The Law is just and good as Paul says in Roman 7:12 , Legalism missed the point of the Law….
 
Euphemia said:
Singing, playing music, performing art and dancing are all moves of the Holy Spirit on submitting people. We do these things because of Him.

What you are doing is advocating the removal of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and performing according to one's human or natural dictates. He can't get through rigidity.

Psalm 30:11
You turned my wailing into dancing;
you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy,

Psalm 149
Praise the Lord.

Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of his faithful people.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.
3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with timbrel and harp.
4 For the Lord takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with victory.
5 Let his faithful people rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

6 May the praise of God be in their mouths
and a double-edged sword in their hands,
7 to inflict vengeance on the nations
and punishment on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with fetters,
their nobles with shackles of iron,
9 to carry out the sentence written against them—
this is the glory of all his faithful people.

Praise the Lord.
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I'm very much afraid that there'll be no clarity or knowledge of the mind of God about this matter unless we get a real sense of what was dealt with at the cross, and an understanding the old man having gone out of sight. Until that is really appreciated, then what we've been discussing is quite inaccessible.
 
Grant Melville said:
I'm very much afraid that there'll be no clarity or knowledge of the mind of God about this matter unless we get a real sense of what was dealt with at the cross, and an understanding the old man having gone out of sight. Until that is really appreciated, then what we've been discussing is quite inaccessible.
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Yes, "afraid" is exactly the appropriate word.

That you think worshiping God is relegated to a capella singing only, you prove that you have a deep-seated fear that anything other than that is carnal and therefore sin, which couldn't be FURTHER from the truth. Fear is behind all manner of false doctrine, and yours is no exception.
 
aha said:
Clericalism? Definitely not good, unhealthy, it missed the point of the function....

But the phrase prior before that: Ordained Priesthood…
Let us define the terms: Ordained Priesthood to my understanding :

Ordained: designated, appointed
Priesthood: Priest or Presbyters in Catholics, Minister, Pastor or Elder in Protestants….

I would be surprised if the Church you belong to does not have such?

There is difference between Ordained Priesthood and Clericalism:
The "ism" in it sound similar to Legal vs. Legalism…. The Law is just and good as Paul says in Roman 7:12 , Legalism missed the point of the Law….
Click to expand...

Ah, I see what you mean, thank you.

Well, I don't belong to a denomination, because I don't see that they're scriptural, there being just one Body. I gather with believers to the name of the Lord Jesus, and we don't have any designated persons in the official sense. We fully acknowledge that God has set in the assembly shepherds, teachers, elders, and so on, and we leave it at that. God has set them in the Church, and nowhere in scripture is man given the authority to ordain persons to these offices, so we simply leave that to Him. In the local assemblies there are people who have these gifts and exercise them, and we thank God for that.

This is a delicate subject, one which I tend to avoid, because it can seem like I'm boasting about the particular 'rightness' of the company of believers with whom I walk in fellowship. That's something we have to avoid. If we start to think that we're superior to other believers then we abandon the humility which is so vital to the true Christian position in a day of breakdown. Everything we, as a company of believers, enjoy is traced directly to the grace and mercy of God: we are nothing special. We simply look to the word of God for direction in all things and do not step off its authority for a moment. I believe the Lord has richly blessed us because of that, and we're free from many of the troubles and complications from which believers in denominations are suffering. Of course, we have difficulties. Satan attacks us with increasing determination and vigour as time goes on. He's always working to try to disrupt unity among the brethren and encourage the abandonment of complete reliance on the Spirit and the word, as well as divine principles. But, we have so much to give thanks for!
 
Grant Melville said:
Ah, I see what you mean, thank you.

Well, I don't belong to a denomination, because I don't see that they're scriptural, there being just one Body. I gather with believers to the name of the Lord Jesus, and we don't have any designated persons in the official sense. We fully acknowledge that God has set in the assembly shepherds, teachers, elders, and so on, and we leave it at that. God has set them in the Church, and nowhere in scripture is man given the authority to ordain persons to these offices, so we simply leave that to Him. In the local assemblies there are people who have these gifts and exercise them, and we thank God for that.

This is a delicate subject, one which I tend to avoid, because it can seem like I'm boasting about the particular 'rightness' of the company of believers with whom I walk in fellowship. That's something we have to avoid. If we start to think that we're superior to other believers then we abandon the humility which is so vital to the true Christian position in a day of breakdown. Everything we, as a company of believers, enjoy is traced directly to the grace and mercy of God: we are nothing special. We simply look to the word of God for direction in all things and do not step off its authority for a moment. I believe the Lord has richly blessed us because of that, and we're free from many of the troubles and complications from which believers in denominations are suffering. Of course, we have difficulties. Satan attacks us with increasing determination and vigour as time goes on. He's always working to try to disrupt unity among the brethren and encourage the abandonment of complete reliance on the Spirit and the word, as well as divine principles. But, we have so much to give thanks for!
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Thank you as well for your post…. i learned new things, or say, edify what the little things I know already….

I see it rather “not extreme” but rather “a strong dedication” by guidance of the Holy Scriptures to do things properly, or say, to do things that is more beneficial for us….. noted it was mentioned several times “true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth”…

I think we all agree in that verse, John 4:23-24….we are all of ONE MIND on that one…

There may be a good reason to raise a concern....concerning the Church,

Although I firmly believe that gates of hell shall not prevail, assuming that piano was brought in by the enemy ….

I believe in what our Teacher has said, concerning the Church, and as I see it, it is more than a Promise, but as a matter of Truth...




Matthew 16:17-19King James Version (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
aha said:
Thank you as well for your post…. i learned new things, or say, edify what the little things I know already….

I see it rather “not extreme” but rather “a strong dedication” by guidance of the Holy Scriptures to do things properly, or say, to do things that is more beneficial for us….. noted it was mentioned several times “true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth”…

I think we all agree in that verse, John 4:23-24….we are all of ONE MIND on that one…

There may be a good reason to raise a concern....concerning the Church,

Although I firmly believe that gates of hell shall not prevail, assuming that piano was brought in by the enemy ….

I believe in what our Teacher has said, concerning the Church, and as I see it, it is more than a Promise, but as a matter of Truth...




Matthew 16:17-19King James Version (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Amen. "A strong dedication", I like that expression! I think that's something that I would very much like to have. If I had that (I hope I do) then the strength would come from the Lord, because I couldn't dedicate myself in my own strength to His things - I'd surely fail.

I feel that the more I'm aware of my own nothingness and of the greatness of Christ, the more I'll be strengthened. The more I'm occupied with Him, every precious feature of His work, His pathway here, His holy, blessed, glorious Person... the more I'm be fitted to please God and to serve Him.
 
Grant Melville said:
I'm very much afraid that there'll be no clarity or knowledge of the mind of God about this matter unless we get a real sense of what was dealt with at the cross, and an understanding the old man having gone out of sight. Until that is really appreciated, then what we've been discussing is quite inaccessible.
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Old man as in old nature - sin nature - self nature ?
What does the cross and what Jesus did have to do with how we worship or sing or play music ?
 
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