I do hope that you are right.
Church Worship Music
- Thread starter Juk
- Start date
I do hope that you are right.
Actually, you have no scriptural basis for your ideas about music in worship.
Everything I say has its roots in what the Lord has taught me through His word. You just may not be too familiar with it.
You can know it, just as I do.
Here then is a thought. IF you can not understand the words of a song, or it is so loud it has no understanding, how can you know if it is feeding your spirit or not????
But if that is the case my sister, is that not just your opinion???? Since that appears to be the case, what then is the difference between you and Grant's opinion? Just asking!
I am one who believes that our faith and teaching of it MUST be rooted in the Word of God. But that is just me.
As I see the difference: will use Venn Diagram : )
Worship is a Big Circle… inside it are small circles of “Praise”, “Obedience”, “Righteousness” "Proper way of doing things"..
And as mentioned: Worship is inside a bigger Circle of Justice:
Man sinned and we are to perish…that is Justice…
There is then John 3:16, it seems to override, or at least OUTSIDE the circle of Justice…
Circle of Love: Forgiveness, Grace, and overlaps as well the circles of Praise”, “Obedience”, “Righteousness” "Proper way of doing things"..
Having said that: one may not give Justice to a Song of Praise : )
…. But if one’s heart is good, Love God, I think it will be fine… : )
Opinion based on what God has said is not just a human idea. Mr. Mellville has an opinion that is not scriptural, but is conjecture only, and not only that, it is therefore a false doctrine....and a legalistic mindset, to boot.
I understand that but my point is........have you presented the Scriptures to what you are saying about the same thing that substciate your comments?
The one who wants to see scripture knows there isn't any, nor is there any to support his views.
It's all just hot air. Unless the scripture distinctly says, "Thou shalt not use musical instruments because it is of the flesh", then NO ONE has the right to go off and create a doctrine about the cessation of what has always been, by God's design.
If you look back over everything I've posted, you will notice that I've been at pains to bring in very many scriptures which show this truth. What these scriptures teach us is what worship is. They don't show us, to the letter, exactly what we should do or not do when we gather - and that's not what I'm trying to promote, not some code or set of rules about how we ought to worship. However, understanding these truths should produce intelligence and sensitivity about what's most pleasing to God, and how He is currently working. There is a Way, a Way which is eminently pleasing to God, and subjection to the scriptures really brings us nearer to that Way. We need to be subject-minded though, and we need to be prepared to give up our own personal preferences and natural tastes. We also need to be prepared to swim against the tide of what is popular and widely done in Christendom, because God is certainly not pleased or honoured by much of what's done by many processing Christians today, sad to say.
Even if you could point me to those roots, that would be something to work on. I'm not familiar with where this doctrine originates in the Word, but, as you say, perhaps I'm not familiar with it as I should be.
If the brethren will bear with me, I'll bring in more scripture to bear on the subject.
In 1 Corinthians 14:26-33, Paul gives us a picture of conditions as they should be when the brethren gather:
"What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification. If any one speak with a tongue, let it be two, or at the most three, and separately, and let one interpret; but if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God. And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if there be a revelation to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For ye can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all be encouraged. And spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints."
This is an orderly, peaceful scene. The thought here is that if anyone has anything to say (which will be intelligible to others) then it should be said, and conditions would be such that everyone else could listen and be edified by it. That's my experience of gathering with the brethren.
Now, what I'm about to say is not intended in a legal or prescriptive way: I'm not laying down the law. I'm not being facetious either. I'd just encourage the brethren to consider these questions in the light of the scriptures. In the scene as described above, if there had been people dancing, playing musical instruments, shouting "Hallelujah", then would it have been easy for the brethren to hear, to concentrate, and to be edified by what was said? Could the assembly be described as orderly and peaceful? Would the objective of learning and encouragement be realised?
It might be said that the above conditions are only for specific gatherings particularly for learning. However, to my knowledge, there's no other kind of condition given for the assemblies, other than orderly, peaceful, and a place where learning and encouragement is available.
In Christendom today, believers are divided into Marys and Marthas.
"... Mary, who also, having sat down at the feet of Jesus was listening to his word. Now Martha was distracted with much serving, and coming up she said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Speak to her therefore that she may help me. But Jesus answering said to her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things; but there is need of one, and Mary has chosen the good part, the which shall not be taken from her." - Luke 10:39-42
Some, like Martha, have many ideas about how the Lord and His people should best be served, and they busy themselves with all sorts of complication and innovation. They are careful and troubled about many things. They have right intentions, for sure. But, they're missing out on the good part, which is sitting quietly at the feet of Jesus, listening to His word. Mary would've gone away from that time knowing much more about the Lord, being acquainted with His heart, what pleased Him. She would go on to serve Him with intelligence and sensitivity. Martha, for all her flurry of activity, had missed out on that. The great evangelist Spurgeon once sardonically commented about certain brethren that they were "resting comfortably on Zion". What he didn't realise was that these brethren were sitting at the feet of Jesus, enjoying the good part.
In having said that, I'm not thinking about any particular people or groups of Christians . It's just a general principle.
In 1 Corinthians 14:26-33, Paul gives us a picture of conditions as they should be when the brethren gather:
"What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification. If any one speak with a tongue, let it be two, or at the most three, and separately, and let one interpret; but if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God. And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if there be a revelation to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For ye can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all be encouraged. And spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints."
This is an orderly, peaceful scene. The thought here is that if anyone has anything to say (which will be intelligible to others) then it should be said, and conditions would be such that everyone else could listen and be edified by it. That's my experience of gathering with the brethren.
Now, what I'm about to say is not intended in a legal or prescriptive way: I'm not laying down the law. I'm not being facetious either. I'd just encourage the brethren to consider these questions in the light of the scriptures. In the scene as described above, if there had been people dancing, playing musical instruments, shouting "Hallelujah", then would it have been easy for the brethren to hear, to concentrate, and to be edified by what was said? Could the assembly be described as orderly and peaceful? Would the objective of learning and encouragement be realised?
It might be said that the above conditions are only for specific gatherings particularly for learning. However, to my knowledge, there's no other kind of condition given for the assemblies, other than orderly, peaceful, and a place where learning and encouragement is available.
In Christendom today, believers are divided into Marys and Marthas.
"... Mary, who also, having sat down at the feet of Jesus was listening to his word. Now Martha was distracted with much serving, and coming up she said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Speak to her therefore that she may help me. But Jesus answering said to her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things; but there is need of one, and Mary has chosen the good part, the which shall not be taken from her." - Luke 10:39-42
Some, like Martha, have many ideas about how the Lord and His people should best be served, and they busy themselves with all sorts of complication and innovation. They are careful and troubled about many things. They have right intentions, for sure. But, they're missing out on the good part, which is sitting quietly at the feet of Jesus, listening to His word. Mary would've gone away from that time knowing much more about the Lord, being acquainted with His heart, what pleased Him. She would go on to serve Him with intelligence and sensitivity. Martha, for all her flurry of activity, had missed out on that. The great evangelist Spurgeon once sardonically commented about certain brethren that they were "resting comfortably on Zion". What he didn't realise was that these brethren were sitting at the feet of Jesus, enjoying the good part.
In having said that, I'm not thinking about any particular people or groups of Christians . It's just a general principle.
Another scripture which comes to mind in connection with this subject is 1 Chronicles 13-15. I won't quote the entirety of the passage here for reasons of space, but I'm sure the brethren can follow it up themselves. What we have in chapter 13 is the incident of the ark, the new cart, and the breach upon Uzzah. David wanted to bring the ark back to its proper place, after it had been recovered from the Philistines. He put it on a new cart, but one thing led to another and Uzzah died. David was indignant with God, then he was afraid of Him. But, in the end, he transported the ark in the proper way, and learned what he needed to learn by the death of Uzzah.
What the new cart represents here is the Philistine mind. Innovation, something new, something alien introduced into the due order which is of God. This teaching can be applied to a good deal of things which have been introduced into the gatherings of the people of God today. There are countless "new carts" in Christendom. The Philistines were a cultured people, refined and artistic. No doubt their ways might've appealed to the Israelites, regardless of the fact that Israel had craftsmanship of a higher order which was directed by God Himself. It would seem this new cart appealed to David. It seems like a convenient way to transport the ark, a good means to an end. It turned out to be fatal - not for David, but for poor Uzzah.
Let's consider musical instruments in Christian worship in the light of this. We have no historical record to musical instruments, either in a church or used in Christian worship, until 600 years into the Christian era. Then, a new cart was introduced. It was introduced in the most dignified of circumstances, the gift of an organ from the Roman emperor to the king of the Franks. Could anyone argue with that? Would anyone have confronted David when the new cart was brought up, told him he ought to bring the Levites instead? I doubt it. And so these things are introduced without question. And whenever a new cart is introduced in Christendom, someone is harmed. Who could have envisaged the breach on Uzzah? Does the potential for harm which innovations present to the weak brother need to be pointed out?
What the new cart represents here is the Philistine mind. Innovation, something new, something alien introduced into the due order which is of God. This teaching can be applied to a good deal of things which have been introduced into the gatherings of the people of God today. There are countless "new carts" in Christendom. The Philistines were a cultured people, refined and artistic. No doubt their ways might've appealed to the Israelites, regardless of the fact that Israel had craftsmanship of a higher order which was directed by God Himself. It would seem this new cart appealed to David. It seems like a convenient way to transport the ark, a good means to an end. It turned out to be fatal - not for David, but for poor Uzzah.
Let's consider musical instruments in Christian worship in the light of this. We have no historical record to musical instruments, either in a church or used in Christian worship, until 600 years into the Christian era. Then, a new cart was introduced. It was introduced in the most dignified of circumstances, the gift of an organ from the Roman emperor to the king of the Franks. Could anyone argue with that? Would anyone have confronted David when the new cart was brought up, told him he ought to bring the Levites instead? I doubt it. And so these things are introduced without question. And whenever a new cart is introduced in Christendom, someone is harmed. Who could have envisaged the breach on Uzzah? Does the potential for harm which innovations present to the weak brother need to be pointed out?
Perhaps the positive side of this truth is lost sight of - doubtless my fault.
I'm sure we all know that fine hymn, Rock of Ages:
"Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thyself I cling..."
That, of course, speaks of salvation. Christ has done it all, we can do nothing - no works can contribute to salvation. We have to come to the end of ourselves, realise our helpless state, before we realise the need we have of a Saviour. Having done that, having received that wondrous mercy, grace and righteousness which are found in Him, are we expected to go on from there to bring in the works of our hands to please God? Are we ever to stop clinging to Him? Thankfully, blessedly, wonderfully not! He is sufficient, Jesus is all-in-all. The artist, the thinker, the athlete, the performer in many of us will no doubt be indignant at being put out of place, replaced so entirely by a perfect Man. We might still be attached to these things of self that make something of us, but we have to realise that they belong to an order of man that was finished, in the sight of God, at the cross. It's perhaps hard to come to terms with, the truth that unless we deny ourselves and take up the cross, we can't truly follow Jesus. But more we consider that blessed One, the more we gaze upon His beauties, wonder at His glories, bask in His love... the more self dwindles into insignificance, and the more we come to it that this Man is the only acceptable Man in God's presence. That is true liberty and freedom. The more that we relinquish the old man and come to it that we've put on the new, the more expansive our worship will be, and the more liberty we'll have in the service of God.
I'm sure we all know that fine hymn, Rock of Ages:
"Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thyself I cling..."
That, of course, speaks of salvation. Christ has done it all, we can do nothing - no works can contribute to salvation. We have to come to the end of ourselves, realise our helpless state, before we realise the need we have of a Saviour. Having done that, having received that wondrous mercy, grace and righteousness which are found in Him, are we expected to go on from there to bring in the works of our hands to please God? Are we ever to stop clinging to Him? Thankfully, blessedly, wonderfully not! He is sufficient, Jesus is all-in-all. The artist, the thinker, the athlete, the performer in many of us will no doubt be indignant at being put out of place, replaced so entirely by a perfect Man. We might still be attached to these things of self that make something of us, but we have to realise that they belong to an order of man that was finished, in the sight of God, at the cross. It's perhaps hard to come to terms with, the truth that unless we deny ourselves and take up the cross, we can't truly follow Jesus. But more we consider that blessed One, the more we gaze upon His beauties, wonder at His glories, bask in His love... the more self dwindles into insignificance, and the more we come to it that this Man is the only acceptable Man in God's presence. That is true liberty and freedom. The more that we relinquish the old man and come to it that we've put on the new, the more expansive our worship will be, and the more liberty we'll have in the service of God.
That you neglect all that worship is , is apparent. You have no scripture to support your doctrine of no musical instruments as a vehicle for musical worship. Denying that expression is unintelligent. That you think you know the way to please God adhering to your personal taste is not wise, either. You are not promoting truth, but a man-made doctrine.
My whole point in this is that you produced Scripture which in your heart gave you a basis for understanding a position of theological thought. It is not necessarily a right or wrong position but one of the heart when you are moved by the Spirit.
I accept that. Personally I do not agree with your position as I believe we are to make a joyful noise unto the Lord and IMO that can include banging two rocks together. But that is just me and we all have the right to agree or disagree.
On the other hand Euphepia has not done that. I am not picking on my sister in any way and she has the same ability to disagree as do you and I but in this case when asked about those Scriptures that would give her comments Biblical strength and convince her heart as was yours Grant, her response was.............
"The one who wants to see scripture knows there isn't any, nor is there any to support his views."
I leave it with those words.
The roots come from the actual command to worship with music using musical instruments.
Psalm 33:2-3
Let the godly sing for joy to the Lord;
it is fitting for the pure to praise him.
2 Praise the Lord with melodies on the lyre;
make music for him on the ten-stringed harp.
3 Sing a new song of praise to him;
play skillfully on the harp, and sing with joy.
Psalm 150
1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heaven!
2 Praise him for his mighty works;
praise his unequaled greatness!
3 Praise him with a blast of the ram’s horn;
praise him with the lyre and harp!
4 Praise him with the tambourine and dancing;
praise him with strings and flutes!
5 Praise him with a clash of cymbals;
praise him with loud clanging cymbals.
6 Let everything that breathes sing praises to the Lord!
Has God somehow changed His mind? Hardly.
Colossians 3:16
Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts.
The Greek "psalmos" consistently means "a song of praise with an instrument", and therefore renders the argument of no instruments as invalid. What is valid is to use all available instrumentation to bring praise and worship to our Lord. If a group doesn't want to, that is their choice, but to declare the full array of instrumentation available to glorify God as somehow evil or wrong, is extreme, to say the very least. IMHO, people who do not exalt the Lord using musical instruments for the reasons given in this thread are missing out on the great blessing that comes from worshiping fully, and also hindering people who have a skill in playing an instrument from enjoying the Lord and blessing Him.
I think I said at the outset that the whole tenor of the New Testament demonstrates this truth, that there's been a fundamental change in the way man worships God. If one was to write down all the characteristics of Jewish worship as recorded in the Old Testament, and all the characteristics of Christian worship as recorded in the New and then compared them side-by-side, then the difference between the two would be clear and striking. The scriptures themselves make the distinction, and it's for us to see it.
I should make it clear that I'm not advocating banning musical instruments used in a church setting. I'm merely stating that they contribute nothing to Christian worship and are never sanctioned in the scriptures in connection with Christian worship. How we practically respond to that is really an individual matter.
I would have to agree, definitely. I think it's vital to have a solid scriptural foundation in order to bring anything in, whether it's doctrine or practice.