Church Worship Music

The roots come from the actual command to worship with music using musical instruments.

Psalm 33:2-3
Let the godly sing for joy to the Lord;
it is fitting for the pure to praise him.
2 Praise the Lord with melodies on the lyre;
make music for him on the ten-stringed harp.
3 Sing a new song of praise to him;
play skillfully on the harp, and sing with joy.

Psalm 150

1 Praise the Lord!

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heaven!
2 Praise him for his mighty works;
praise his unequaled greatness!
3 Praise him with a blast of the ram’s horn;
praise him with the lyre and harp!
4 Praise him with the tambourine and dancing;
praise him with strings and flutes!
5 Praise him with a clash of cymbals;
praise him with loud clanging cymbals.
6 Let everything that breathes sing praises to the Lord!

Has God somehow changed His mind? Hardly.

Colossians 3:16
Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts.

The Greek "psalmos" consistently means "a song of praise with an instrument", and therefore renders the argument of no instruments as invalid. What is valid is to use all available instrumentation to bring praise and worship to our Lord. If a group doesn't want to, that is their choice, but to declare the full array of instrumentation available to glorify God as somehow evil or wrong, is extreme, to say the very least. IMHO, people who do not exalt the Lord using musical instruments for the reasons given in this thread are missing out on the great blessing that comes from worshiping fully, and also hindering people who have a skill in playing an instrument from enjoying the Lord and blessing Him.

Again, every scripture you quote here is from an old dispensation, when the Holy Spirit was not indwelling God's people and they were unable to worship in spirit and in truth in the way that we are able to.

You ask if God has changed His mind. I wouldn't say that, but I would say that He changes His relationship with man according to His eternal purposes. 2 Corinthians 3 is one of the chapters which sets out the way that His purpose has changed between the time which the Psalms refer to, and the time Colossians refers to.

And isn't the contrast between Psalms and Colossians plain? One speaks about a great variety of musical instruments employed in praise. The other speaks about psalms and hymns and spiritual songs sung from the heart. Every reference to musical worship in the New Testament refers to singing, and often mentions the heart and / or the spirit. A striking contrast to the Old Testament.

A radical interpretation of one or two Greek words has no weight whatsoever when we consider that musical instruments were never used in association with Christian worship for the first 600 years of the Christian era. Even if the silence of scripture holds no sway with us, perhaps the silence of history does.

What is most disturbing about all this is the suggestion that a believer or gathering of believers cannot possibly worship God fully without the addition of props, whether its musical instruments or whatever else. The typical teaching of the offerings of the Old Testament clearly shows the error of that. The unmixed character of many of the offerings show them to be purely of Christ, without any addition. That is what the believer offers to God - Christ, without any admixture or addition required. If we understand these typical teachings it should really give us a deeper and fuller sense of Jesus as the only acceptable offering - for sins, yes, but also for the pleasure of God now and eternally. As I've said before, we can't possibly add Adam to Christ in order to please God. Cain's offering simply can't come into the equation.
 
@Euphemia, I think you said earlier that there has been no cessation of what is God's design. My question is why that should apply to musical instruments, which were only one element of Jewish worship, and not all the other elements?

But, having said that, there are other elements of Jewish worship that have been borrowed, in Christendom. The altar is one - many church buildings have a physical altar, despite there being no sanction of that in the New Testament. Much is made of church buildings themselves, which are very decadent and frequently 'consecrated', a notion that has no place in Christianity. Some systems have a distinct ordained priesthood, i.e. clericalism, another element borrowed from Judaism. This is all part of the same Judaizing influence which is at work throughout Christendom. Faith has replaced sight, and the heavenly has replaced the earthly, but the enemy is keen to work against that. Because that's what's behind all this. Satan is very keen to drag believers back to a system of things which God has done away with, which He has annulled. The devil wants the believer in Christ to be brought under law, subject to ordinances, with their minds on the things on the earth - occupied with buildings, clothes and apparatus. That is because Satan is in total opposition to Christ, and all his efforts are focused on Him. When shall He die and His name perish? is the objective of the devil. We see that most strikingly in Roman Catholicism which is a systematically Christ-denying system. Every unscriptural element of it is designed to supplant the rightful place and position of Christ, aping every feature and usurping every unique position of the Lord - the pope as the vicar and head of the church, Mary as a mediator, the temporal priesthood, the confessor, the altar, the mass as a sacrifice... and so on. It borrows a great deal from Judaism, because the devil is subtle. He knows that the argument can be put forward that, since these things were ordained of God for the Jews and were right at that time, why should God want anything different now? That subtle deception effectively airbrushes the Lord Jesus and the cross out of time, as if it had never happened - as if, as the infidels like to believe, Christianity merely 'evolved' out of Judaism, keeping some elements and discarding others on mankind's essential journey to an enlightened post-religious state. Judaizing is destructive. When it came into the early church, it was rightly withstood. The apostles understood the Lord's words, recorded in Matthew 9:17:

"Nor do men put new wine into old skins, otherwise the skins burst and the wine is poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together."

The enemy is subtle, which is why we have to stand firmly on the ground of the Word. The Lord Jesus gave the example for that, as He did in every way - when tempted of the devil in the wilderness, He answered using the scriptures. He, God in Himself, never stepped off dependence on the Word.
 
I think I said at the outset that the whole tenor of the New Testament demonstrates this truth, that there's been a fundamental change in the way man worships God. If one was to write down all the characteristics of Jewish worship as recorded in the Old Testament, and all the characteristics of Christian worship as recorded in the New and then compared them side-by-side, then the difference between the two would be clear and striking. The scriptures themselves make the distinction, and it's for us to see it.

I should make it clear that I'm not advocating banning musical instruments used in a church setting. I'm merely stating that they contribute nothing to Christian worship and are never sanctioned in the scriptures in connection with Christian worship. How we practically respond to that is really an individual matter.

You've missed the boat entirely with regard to worshiping with music. How sad that is.
 
Again, every scripture you quote here is from an old dispensation, when the Holy Spirit was not indwelling God's people and they were unable to worship in spirit and in truth in the way that we are able to.

There is no reason to rebuff the Old Testament.

You ask if God has changed His mind. I wouldn't say that, but I would say that He changes His relationship with man according to His eternal purposes. 2 Corinthians 3 is one of the chapters which sets out the way that His purpose has changed between the time which the Psalms refer to, and the time Colossians refers to.

God hasn't changed his mind about man worshiping in with music. Your view is extreme, to say the least. You cannot use 2 Corinthians 3 to prop up your personal views.

And isn't the contrast between Psalms and Colossians plain? One speaks about a great variety of musical instruments employed in praise. The other speaks about psalms and hymns and spiritual songs sung from the heart. Every reference to musical worship in the New Testament refers to singing, and often mentions the heart and / or the spirit. A striking contrast to the Old Testament.

As I said, "psalmos" means "a song of praise with instruments".

A radical interpretation of one or two Greek words has no weight whatsoever when we consider that musical instruments were never used in association with Christian worship for the first 600 years of the Christian era. Even if the silence of scripture holds no sway with us, perhaps the silence of history does.

That's a lie based on conjecture.

What is most disturbing about all this is the suggestion that a believer or gathering of believers cannot possibly worship God fully without the addition of props, whether its musical instruments or whatever else. The typical teaching of the offerings of the Old Testament clearly shows the error of that. The unmixed character of many of the offerings show them to be purely of Christ, without any addition. That is what the believer offers to God - Christ, without any admixture or addition required. If we understand these typical teachings it should really give us a deeper and fuller sense of Jesus as the only acceptable offering - for sins, yes, but also for the pleasure of God now and eternally. As I've said before, we can't possibly add Adam to Christ in order to please God. Cain's offering simply can't come into the equation.

You don't have to have instrumental music if you don't want to, but it is sinful and spiritually immature to consider musical instruments employed in worship as some sort of unholy "mixture". Your view is legalism at its worst, and a full denial of the actual roots of worship.
 
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There is no reason to rebuff the Old Testament.



God hasn't changed his mind about man worshiping in with music. Your view is extreme, to say the least. You cannot use 2 Corinthians 3 to prop up your personal views.



As I said, "psalmos" means "a song of praise with instruments".



That's a lie based on conjecture.



You don't have to have instrumental music if you don't want to, but it is sinful and spiritually immature to consider musical instruments employed in worship as some sort of unholy "mixture". Your view is legalism at its worst, and a full denial of the actual roots of worship.

Again, I wouldn't for a moment diminish the worth of the Old Testament - in so many of the types we learn so much about the Lord Jesus. That alone makes them priceless.

Well, there's that claim again that God hasn't changed His mind about musical instruments. Why is that when He, speaking reverently, changed His mind about so much else of the Jewish system?

Historical fact isn't conjecture... it can be investigated by anyone here, whether or not musical instruments were used in the early church. I've sited a couple of sources and examples in this thread already, and I can provide more if required. Of course, history alone can't be our guide, we have to trust in the Word first and foremost.

One might say that the roots of worship lie with the true Vine, the Lord Jesus. That brings us back to the vital question: is He sufficient, or do we need Adam, the old man?
 
The Old Testament scriptures are immensely instructive and important to us as believers - I wouldn't question their worth for a moment. However - and I'm sure you'll agree - we can't apply them all literally.

LOL! We can apply them in worship as God's commands and instructions remain concerning it.
 
Again, I wouldn't for a moment diminish the worth of the Old Testament - in so many of the types we learn so much about the Lord Jesus. That alone makes them priceless.

Well, there's that claim again that God hasn't changed His mind about musical instruments. Why is that when He, speaking reverently, changed His mind about so much else of the Jewish system?

Historical fact isn't conjecture... it can be investigated by anyone here, whether or not musical instruments were used in the early church. I've sited a couple of sources and examples in this thread already, and I can provide more if required. Of course, history alone can't be our guide, we have to trust in the Word first and foremost.

One might say that the roots of worship lie with the true Vine, the Lord Jesus. That brings us back to the vital question: is He sufficient, or do we need Adam, the old man?

You cannot make a doctrine out of thin air. God inhabits our praises, and when we sing and play to Him, He makes His presence known.

Your views about instruments in worship is severe and baseless. While you are free to worship a capella, you cannot discourage in any way those of us who play music and dance as worship before the Lord. As I said before , those who do discourage it are taking on Michal's attitude, and God cursed her womb for doing so.
 
You cannot make a doctrine out of thin air. God inhabits our praises, and when we sing and play to Him, He makes His presence known.

Your views about instruments in worship is severe and baseless. While you are free to worship a capella, you cannot discourage in any way those of us who play music and dance as worship before the Lord. As I said before , those who do discourage it are taking on Michal's attitude, and God cursed her womb for doing so.
I think it's unnecessary to fabricate a doctrine when the word of God is really quite unequivocal about the difference between Jewish and Christian worship. Surely, you must acknowledge that there is a difference? It's a principle which is very important to us as believers in the Lord Jesus. What I've been trying to demonstrate is the underlying principle - as I've said before, I'm not advocating a ban on musical instruments. That would be legal. What's much more important is to be clear about what constitutes worship and what doesn't, and how this has changed with the incoming of the Son of God and His crucifixion and resurrection. I mentioned 2 Corinthians 3 in relation to that. Moses put a veil on his face so that children of Israel wouldn't see the glory of God shining in it, so they wouldn't fix their eyes on that which was to be annulled. Moses had intelligence as to that. He knew, to some extent at least, that something greater was coming. Ezekiel saw the glory of God departing from the house - again, that was the end of one thing. God would no longer dwell in a physical house, nor would He be God just to one people. The limited thought (though one which was and is precious to Him) of Israel couldn't contain all that God was minded to do with man, and their forms of worship were merely shadows of what was to come - in our day. The old skins, the old forms of Judaism, cannot contain the new wine.
 
You are inviting me to debate something that has no bearing on the subject. Worship is not an "old system".
It's entirely relevant to the subject - really, it's what accounts for this difficulty, not understanding this underlying principle.

Worship is not an old system, but there was an old system of worship.
 
It's entirely relevant to the subject - really, it's what accounts for this difficulty, not understanding this underlying principle.

Worship is not an old system, but there was an old system of worship.
The Lord Jesus speaks about the new and the old systems in Luke.

"And he spoke also a parable to them: No one puts a piece of a new garment upon an old garment, otherwise he will both rend the new, and the piece which is from the new will not suit with the old. And no one puts new wine into old skins, otherwise the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but new wine is to be put into new skins, and both are preserved." - Luke 5:36-38

The old and the new do not mix - we can't simply patch up the old and make it new, nor put the new into the old. What divine wisdom the Lord displays in what He goes on to say:

"And no one having drunk old wine straightway wishes for new, for he says, The old is better." - Luke 5:39

He knew very well that the Jews, and later even believers in Himself from among the Gentiles, would hanker after the old. The colour, the music, the ritual, the sights, sounds and scents of Judaism would appeal to the natural man much more than worship which is purely spiritual, in spirit and heart.

Thomas doubted, his faith was weak, he needed to see and put his finger into the Lord's wounds. He wanted the old. He wanted a Messiah who would redeem the Jewish nation. Christ crucified stumbled him. But the Lord in His grace recovered Thomas. The Lord in grace still has patience with Judaizing Christendom.
 
I think it's unnecessary to fabricate a doctrine when the word of God is really quite unequivocal about the difference between Jewish and Christian worship. Surely, you must acknowledge that there is a difference? It's a principle which is very important to us as believers in the Lord Jesus. What I've been trying to demonstrate is the underlying principle - as I've said before, I'm not advocating a ban on musical instruments. That would be legal. What's much more important is to be clear about what constitutes worship and what doesn't, and how this has changed with the incoming of the Son of God and His crucifixion and resurrection. I mentioned 2 Corinthians 3 in relation to that. Moses put a veil on his face so that children of Israel wouldn't see the glory of God shining in it, so they wouldn't fix their eyes on that which was to be annulled. Moses had intelligence as to that. He knew, to some extent at least, that something greater was coming. Ezekiel saw the glory of God departing from the house - again, that was the end of one thing. God would no longer dwell in a physical house, nor would He be God just to one people. The limited thought (though one which was and is precious to Him) of Israel couldn't contain all that God was minded to do with man, and their forms of worship were merely shadows of what was to come - in our day. The old skins, the old forms of Judaism, cannot contain the new wine.

There is NO difference between Hebrew and Christian worship of God, except perhaps since our Messiah has come, we are all the more exuberant!

Our worship of God has no bearing on the Old Testament. Worship belongs to God and we humans can make music, sing and dance before Him as was done since the beginning! There is no timeline for instruments, for they have not been phased out.
 
The Lord Jesus speaks about the new and the old systems in Luke.

"And he spoke also a parable to them: No one puts a piece of a new garment upon an old garment, otherwise he will both rend the new, and the piece which is from the new will not suit with the old. And no one puts new wine into old skins, otherwise the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but new wine is to be put into new skins, and both are preserved." - Luke 5:36-38

The old and the new do not mix - we can't simply patch up the old and make it new, nor put the new into the old. What divine wisdom the Lord displays in what He goes on to say:

"And no one having drunk old wine straightway wishes for new, for he says, The old is better." - Luke 5:39

He knew very well that the Jews, and later even believers in Himself from among the Gentiles, would hanker after the old. The colour, the music, the ritual, the sights, sounds and scents of Judaism would appeal to the natural man much more than worship which is purely spiritual, in spirit and heart.

Thomas doubted, his faith was weak, he needed to see and put his finger into the Lord's wounds. He wanted the old. He wanted a Messiah who would redeem the Jewish nation. Christ crucified stumbled him. But the Lord in His grace recovered Thomas. The Lord in grace still has patience with Judaizing Christendom.

Our pure worship has no timeline, and is not patterned after any "system". We are to worship Him exuberantly from the heart, and that means expressing it in whichever way we are moved to do. Praise God! I am free to sing and dance and play an instrument to my Jesus!
 
Don't you think that the outward activity you describe is really at odds with the description Paul gives of the assembly in 1 Corinthians 14? As I pointed out above, that really doesn't correspond with wild abandon. One of the fruits of the spirit is self control (Galatians 5:23), and I believe that's what Paul is bringing out here.
 
Don't you think that the outward activity you describe is really at odds with the description Paul gives of the assembly in 1 Corinthians 14? As I pointed out above, that really doesn't correspond with wild abandon. One of the fruits of the spirit is self control (Galatians 5:23), and I believe that's what Paul is bringing out here.

No, the way we are to worship God is congruent with all of scripture and all of what God desires and revels in. That we worship with all our body, soul and spirit is in line with how God desires it. This has nothing to do with lack of self-control. It is about giving over to the Spirit of God in worshiping the Lord utterly. Holding back is not required.
 
No, the way we are to worship God is congruent with all of scripture and all of what God desires and revels in. That we worship with all our body, soul and spirit is in line with how God desires it. This has nothing to do with lack of self-control. It is about giving over to the Spirit of God in worshiping the Lord utterly. Holding back is not required.
When I worship, I don't feel as though I'm holding anything back from God. What I give to God in worship is what He has given me: impressions of Himself. What else could He take pleasure in, other than what is entirely of Himself?

The first chapter of Leviticus is very instructive when it comes to worship, what we can offer in the service of God.

"Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, When any man of you presenteth an offering to Jehovah, ye shall present your offering of the cattle, of the herd and of the flock." (Leviticus 1:2)

Whether of the herd or of the flock, the offering is Christ, in type. A male without blemish, it speaks of His perfection. First mentioned, we get the bullock. That is a large impression of the Lord Jesus, an appreciation of His strength and vitality in doing all the will of God. It says of this offering that the offerer "shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt-offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him." (Leviticus 1:4). "Lay his hand" can also be translated "lean with his hand". We get a sense of dependence from that, dependence on the One who has made atonement. Mr Coates has made the following helpful remarks about that:

"The word "to make atonement for him" suggests that there is that in the man himself which is unsuited to be brought near to God. All that we are as in the flesh was unfit for His eye to rest upon, it the only way in which we consider it, when serving God, is as having been covered - nay, more than covered, absolutely removed - in the death of Christ to His glory. No self-deception darkens the heart as we draw near, for we realize that holy love has taken its own way to judge and remove all that we were. We fully own what existed on our part, but the great and blessed fact that we engage our hearts with is that even that has brought to view in a glorious way the perfections and love of the Son of God."

Then we have the sheep or goat, which is a smaller impression. There's no leaning on the victim, a lack of a sense of personal identification with Christ. However, it is still an impression of Jesus, and therefore wholly acceptable to God.

Then we have an offering of the fowls, which is a very small, feeble appreciation - but still an appreciation nonetheless. It is necessary to "remove its crop with its feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east, into the place of the ashes..." (Leviticus 1:16). This speaks of something natural mixed up with the spiritual offering - something which has to be discarded. God still accepts the offering, even though it is very small and does contain mixture. There is still something of Christ in it, and it can still be offered "by fire to Jehovah of a sweet odour." (Leviticus 1:17).

The pleasure of God is entirely bound up with Christ. We have to see this. We won't get an appreciation of what God appreciates if we're always looking at ourselves, looking for ways to use what natural abilities we have to make an offering to God. It's only by looking steadfastly on Jesus that we get something that is a suitable offering. The more we look at Jesus, the more we disappear in our own estimation, the more He grows in our appreciation until He fills our gaze completely and nothing of self remains. John the Baptist was an example of someone who had disappeared in his own estimation. When asked "Who art thou?" he answers, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness..." (John 1:22-23). He is nothing in his own eyes, just a voice. He had a full appreciation of "He who comes after me". He wouldn't've been indignant when his disciples left him to follow after Jesus. The humility and self-denial of John was no affectation. The consciousness of the peerless worth of Christ was all that he valued.
 
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