Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching

Please forgive me for responding in a conversation for men, but I felt compelled to respond from my heart.

Through my window of experience and view, I see many have great expectations for their pastors to be apostle like. Many forget they are human just like we are, full of the same sins that plague the world. There are many contradictions I have witnessed, how some sins are ok for a few, but not for everyone. The preacher and family with 100 pairs of excess in their closets, the pastor that is divorced for the wrong reasons, etc. I can continue to add a laundry list which doesnt really matter anyway. We are forgiven right?

There is a feel good style of preaching that is missing the mark. There is a tolerance of sin that is missing the mark. When was the last time you heard a service that made you repent, and cry for offending our Father?

Thing is dissecting human behavior means deep introspection, as the world is watching with more scrutiny that ever. There are many preachers out here in it for the job security, and not to glorify our Father in heaven, in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. They say they are, when many of their actions say other wise. May we pray for them to get it right. Its not about donations, but salvations :) Amen.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Ray;

The Scriptures you pointed to are what it is and says. We have this same situation in many churches and ours (in the San Francisco Bay Area.)

We don't condone the sin but we love them, pray hard for them, listen and be supportive of their faith, share the Scriptures as we would the murderer, pedifiler, drug or substance dependency, violent abuser toward other people, etc...

We must have all the faith and power of the Holy Spirit to work and intercede with each one of us. I have personally witnessed a woman couple break from their unknowing bondage and enslavement of their sin. Slowly with the help of the church and pastor where they were attending, they moved out from living together and got back into being the creation God designed for them both.

Today they are sisters in Christ, they desire to walk in obedience and are involved in ministry, music ministry, evangelizing and telling their story in the downtown community.

But for many this takes God's perfect time and may not happen overnight. This is why fervent prayer but constant fellowship is vital.

I'll keep these men, your church and pastors in my prayers.

God bless you, Ray, and your family.
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I can see this as very conflicting.

In a prior bible study group, where was a guy who had a son who was openly gay and married to another man. In discussing this, he stated that he loved his son; however, because of his life style, he (the guy in the study group), refused to ever go to his son's house. Basically, he severed all connection with this son, aside from claiming that he loved him son. I get it, just not sure how best to deal with something like that.

My sister is gay. She was married with two kids. The kids were born though my sister's "wife," who was artificially impregnated. Since this all took place in California, my sister's name appears on their birth certificates as the "father." A few years back (five years), my sister's wife died of a rare heart infection. It was one of those things where she did not feel well, went to the hospital, and died several days later. Since then my sister has been rising the kids.

Now, my sister and I have had a harsh relationship, but it has gotten better though the years. Since she lives in California and does not like to fly or drive long distances, we have only seen each other once in over 20 years. We do talk at least monthly. Both of her kids consider me their uncle. How does one deal with a situation like that?

Rtm
 
rtm3039 said:
Ok, this is mostly curiosity here. A couple of month ago, I came across what I know is a gay couple at church. I did not speak with them, do not know them, did not hear then say anything, but it is obvious to me that they are a gay male couple.

Obviously, I know what Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Jude 7 says (and I agree, as far as the act goes, but maybe not the actor). However, how do you deal with members of your congregation who are homosexual? Yes, they are living in sin, but we all are.

Rtm
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Well, remember....yu asked. You are the moderator.

I have had over the years several gay couples come and visit. Like you I do not ask. But when you see two men holding hands in church you can only think one thing.

I have, because of seeing this in the past, kept a sermon in my pocket. If that couple comes again and they have, I make sure to preach that sermon where God does not just call homosexuality sin....but an "abomination". I then explain that the same God who condemns the ACT loves the actor and His grace is so powerful that He can and will forgive and save all who call on Christ.

I explain Biblically that there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. Their attendance in a Christian church means that they have not been exposed to the Word of God. Then I tell them that they can be a homosexual or a Christian but not both. To be a Christian we ALL must leave our KNOWN sin behind us when we come to Christ.

So then, A true Christian is one who has been born again through Christ. If someone claims to have become a Christian and still continues and advocates their sinful lifestyle, then that simply means they have never become saved.

Rom 1:32........
" Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

That applies not only to the homosexual but to the theif, the liar, the adulterer, the wife beater, the drug addict and so on.

To become saved is to become a Christian. There is no true Christian who has not been regenerated and true regeneration propels a person onward and not backward into the old lifestyle. Christ did not go to the cross to make us sinners but Saints. The next time someone tells you they are a gay Christian, beware because, there is NO SUH THING!

Now having said that.....I have never had a couple come back after that. I have never had them come to Christ either. What does that tell you?????

Remember.....you asked!
 
thenami said:
Please forgive me for responding in a conversation for men, but I felt compelled to respond from my heart.

Through my window of experience and view, I see many have great expectations for their pastors to be apostle like. Many forget they are human just like we are, full of the same sins that plague the world. There are many contradictions I have witnessed, how some sins are ok for a few, but not for everyone. The preacher and family with 100 pairs of excess in their closets, the pastor that is divorced for the wrong reasons, etc. I can continue to add a laundry list which doesnt really matter anyway. We are forgiven right?

There is a feel good style of preaching that is missing the mark. There is a tolerance of sin that is missing the mark. When was the last time you heard a service that made you repent, and cry for offending our Father?

Thing is dissecting human behavior means deep introspection, as the world is watching with more scrutiny that ever. There are many preachers out here in it for the job security, and not to glorify our Father in heaven, in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. They say they are, when many of their actions say other wise. May we pray for them to get it right. Its not about donations, but salvations :) Amen.
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AND..........that is the very reason that the pastor/preacher must stick to the written Word of God.

To any preacher, he must stand where God stands on all sin....not just the ones he does not like or be in fear of the ones who sit in the pews.

Some preachers will preach a blue streak again prostitution and the whole church will shout AMEN brother. Preach it loud and hard!!!!!

WHY???

Because there are NO PROTITUTES IN THE ROOM!

But when he starts to preach on stealing and lieing and says that TAX EVASION is stealing and LIEING.......there will be a deafening silence in that same room.

Do you wonder why?
 
rtm3039 said:
I can see this as very conflicting.

In a prior bible study group, where was a guy who had a son who was openly gay and married to another man. In discussing this, he stated that he loved his son; however, because of his life style, he (the guy in the study group), refused to ever go to his son's house. Basically, he severed all connection with this son, aside from claiming that he loved him son. I get it, just not sure how best to deal with something like that.

My sister is gay. She was married with two kids. The kids were born though my sister's "wife," who was artificially impregnated. Since this all took place in California, my sister's name appears on their birth certificates as the "father." A few years back (five years), my sister's wife died of a rare heart infection. It was one of those things where she did not feel well, went to the hospital, and died several days later. Since then my sister has been rising the kids.

Now, my sister and I have had a harsh relationship, but it has gotten better though the years. Since she lives in California and does not like to fly or drive long distances, we have only seen each other once in over 20 years. We do talk at least monthly. Both of her kids consider me their uncle. How does one deal with a situation like that?

Rtm
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Hello Ray,

Like you said, brother, it is very conflicting. This is your sister and we also have a situation with my young nephew in our immediate family, though he attends church weekly and Bible studies weekly, it is difficult.

When we cry out, whom shall we choose that is greater than conflict? Please go back to my post. God may be using you to minister to your sister. Keep that connection.

God bless you, Ray, and your whole family.
 
rtm3039 said:
I can see this as very conflicting.

In a prior bible study group, where was a guy who had a son who was openly gay and married to another man. In discussing this, he stated that he loved his son; however, because of his life style, he (the guy in the study group), refused to ever go to his son's house. Basically, he severed all connection with this son, aside from claiming that he loved him son. I get it, just not sure how best to deal with something like that.

My sister is gay. She was married with two kids. The kids were born though my sister's "wife," who was artificially impregnated. Since this all took place in California, my sister's name appears on their birth certificates as the "father." A few years back (five years), my sister's wife died of a rare heart infection. It was one of those things where she did not feel well, went to the hospital, and died several days later. Since then my sister has been rising the kids.

Now, my sister and I have had a harsh relationship, but it has gotten better though the years. Since she lives in California and does not like to fly or drive long distances, we have only seen each other once in over 20 years. We do talk at least monthly. Both of her kids consider me their uncle. How does one deal with a situation like that?

Rtm
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You bet it is!

I have 2 very close relatives who are gay and I have shared the gospel many times with them. It is a struggle and a challenge to communicate to them the truth of God's Word, but it has to be done.

Always remember, LOVE the actor but hate the action.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Major;

I just posted my followup and your post, probably in response to my original thread is what I was asking for.

If a preacher speaks for God, takes a stand against sin, no matter what it is, and is sincere he will always get a lot of Amens! - quote Major

I agree with you and feel our posts align.

God bless you, Major, and your family.
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Good news!
 
thenami said:
Please forgive me for responding in a conversation for men, but I felt compelled to respond from my heart. Through my window of experience and view, I see many have great expectations for their pastors to be apostle like. Many forget they are human just like we are, full of the same sins that plague the world. There are many contradictions I have witnessed, how some sins are ok for a few, but not for everyone. The preacher and family with 100 pairs of excess in their closets, the pastor that is divorced for the wrong reasons, etc. I can continue to add a laundry list which doesnt really matter anyway. We are forgiven right? There is a feel good style of preaching that is missing the mark. There is a tolerance of sin that is missing the mark. When was the last time you heard a service that made you repent, and cry for offending our Father? Thing is dissecting human behavior means deep introspection, as the world is watching with more scrutiny that ever. There are many preachers out here in it for the job security, and not to glorify our Father in heaven, in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. They say they are, when many of their actions say other wise. May we pray for them to get it right. Its not about donations, but salvations :) Amen.
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Hello thenami;

If we go back, I authored this topic and opened my posts with, Hello brothers and sisters;
It's been open for anyone to share their thoughts.

God bless you and thank you for sharing yours, sister.
 
Major said:
Well, remember....yu asked. You are the moderator.

I have had over the years several gay couples come and visit. Like you I do not ask. But when you see two men holding hands in church you can only think one thing.

I have, because of seeing this in the past, kept a sermon in my pocket. If that couple comes again and they have, I make sure to preach that sermon where God does not just call homosexuality sin....but an "abomination". I then explain that the same God who condemns the ACT loves the actor and His grace is so powerful that He can and will forgive and save all who call on Christ.

I explain Biblically that there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. Their attendance in a Christian church means that they have not been exposed to the Word of God. Then I tell them that they can be a homosexual or a Christian but not both. To be a Christian we ALL must leave our KNOWN sin behind us when we come to Christ.

So then, A true Christian is one who has been born again through Christ. If someone claims to have become a Christian and still continues and advocates their sinful lifestyle, then that simply means they have never become saved.

Rom 1:32........
" Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

That applies not only to the homosexual but to the theif, the liar, the adulterer, the wife beater, the drug addict and so on.

To become saved is to become a Christian. There is no true Christian who has not been regenerated and true regeneration propels a person onward and not backward into the old lifestyle. Christ did not go to the cross to make us sinners but Saints. The next time someone tells you they are a gay Christian, beware because, there is NO SUH THING!

Now having said that.....I have never had a couple come back after that. I have never had them come to Christ either. What does that tell you?????

Remember.....you asked!
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Thanks. I'm good with your comments. I get it. It's just one of the more conflicting issues I think about.

Rtm
 
bobinfaith said:
catchy phrases" an example was, when the preacher talks about struggling with a decision then applies with, "let go and let God," the group is saying they need more than that, they are hungry for context in the preaching.
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there should be a explanation with scripture . with this phrase the scripture trust in the Lord with all your heart . along with peter casting all our cares upon him for he care for us.. so in that it could be said give it to the Lord and leave it in his hands. we are told to take our burdens to the Lord and leave it there . i seen a pastor on t.v use the illustration of taking baggage to the altar and leave it, then turn around and pick it back up. we are to use our faith. this is a outline of a topical message . a good solid topical message backed with scripture can be just as effective as the the other method .
 
sandman said:
Before I begin........ I look at he people and silently ask God to work within me to meet peoples needs and bless their lives ……… There are times when I never get to the first scripture on that stick note…. another scripture will come to mind and off I go ......God has not failed me yet.

“Let go and let God” …would be apropos for my post
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agreed that is how it should be. i have a friend that was told by another seasoned pastor that he knew what he was going to preach a month ahead.. i dont plan messages i preach them as God gives me
 
rtm3039 said:
Ok, this is mostly curiosity here. A couple of month ago, I came across what I know is a gay couple at church. I did not speak with them, do not know them, did not hear then say anything, but it is obvious to me that they are a gay male couple.

Obviously, I know what Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Jude 7 says (and I agree, as far as the act goes, but maybe not the actor). However, how do you deal with members of your congregation who are homosexual? Yes, they are living in sin, but we all are.

Rtm
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RTM,

If it were me (and you aren't, I realize that), I'd ask them to meet with me somewhere for a soda, and in that meeting, share my testimony with them, and give them opportunity to talk about theirs. Once it's all out in the open, go first and foremost with the leading of the Spirit, and then slam the Bible up-side da head...

Hey, I'm just kidding.

Here's the thing, my friend. They may not be sexually active. It's not sin to have homosexual attractions. It's sin to act upon them, just like fornication or any other sexual sin. I've known men who had those attractions, and hung around each other, and yet weren't acting upon those attractions. They were actually supporting one another to stand up against the desires. They did that because most others around them couldn't relate, nor had the inclination to try and hear their story, and stand in the gap with them for each other.

If they're acting upon their sexual desires, then they have a serious problem. Yell, "FIRE!" so to speak. Find out what they think they know about God's word concerning that active lifestyle. Teach them in love. They're people, and a part of God's creation within humanity. You know this, I know this, we all do. The difference is that most people aren't equipped to handle standing on that Rock of love and compassion, and sharing the truth in love.

They may still take offense and leave. It is what it is. You win some, you lose some. What matters is that, even if you fail, you have planted something in them that they will never forget.

I love homosexuals like anyone else. Some call my way of dealing with them "tough love." Well, at least it's love. I tell them that I'm concerned for them, but not because of the sentiments of others, but because of the word of God in not only English translations, but also from the Greek and Hebrew, AND from Holy Spirit. If they're willing to explore with you the truth, then great. However, it's more likely that they will walk away in disgust on the basis of having placed their feeling ahead of their capacity to think critically of themselves.

You know, sometimes they're in a living Hell, and are seeking someone who will understand and love them with the truth, and be willing to walk that extra few miles with them. The Lord will give to you what you need if He has prepared them in advance. If not, they're going to reject you. Take that rejection like a man of God by smiling, extending your hand, and letting them know you'll be there for them if ever they need you.

This isn't some formula. I'm just throwing this out to help you to gird up your courage and to step out in faith that the Lord will lead you.

MM
 
rtm3039 said:
I can see this as very conflicting.

In a prior bible study group, where was a guy who had a son who was openly gay and married to another man. In discussing this, he stated that he loved his son; however, because of his life style, he (the guy in the study group), refused to ever go to his son's house. Basically, he severed all connection with this son, aside from claiming that he loved him son. I get it, just not sure how best to deal with something like that.

My sister is gay. She was married with two kids. The kids were born though my sister's "wife," who was artificially impregnated. Since this all took place in California, my sister's name appears on their birth certificates as the "father." A few years back (five years), my sister's wife died of a rare heart infection. It was one of those things where she did not feel well, went to the hospital, and died several days later. Since then my sister has been rising the kids.

Now, my sister and I have had a harsh relationship, but it has gotten better though the years. Since she lives in California and does not like to fly or drive long distances, we have only seen each other once in over 20 years. We do talk at least monthly. Both of her kids consider me their uncle. How does one deal with a situation like that?

Rtm
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Hmm. Well, let's see what my little book of formulas says...

NOT!

Family is much harder to deal with. It's quite astounding at time how damaging familial ties can be to actually build a repour in any attempt at dealing with sin, moreso than for a stranger from outside the familial ties. An actual stranger who is fully walking in the Spirit may have far better success in approaching the family member.

Have you ever considered getting someone from the outside to speak with her who knows how to deal with her situation? They're out there, and there may be some in her area out there in Cal.

As to that man who has turned from his son...oh, man! That's such a tragic tendency in so many fathers. Far too many fathers freak out too vehemently, and mostly out of ignorance...not knowing how to handle it all.

Look, being a good listener, as with anyone who is being counseled, is key. Starting out with trying to "fix" them is most generally the wrong approach, as you likely know. That dad needs to understand that. He probably already is aware that he blew it...or at least, I hope he does.

He will simply have to play it by ear, and it may take years to get to the point he can start dealing with the conscience of the son. That's the part of homosexuals that needs to be reconstructed. That's the key to the locked door.

Again, standing in the gap with that father can make a huge difference. It's tough, and it's a loooong journey, but the desired goal is worthwhile.

I also agree with the others here...prayer...bathing it all in prayer first and foremost.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Hmm. Well, let's see what my little book of formulas says...

NOT!

Family is much harder to deal with. It's quite astounding at time how damaging familial ties can be to actually build a repour in any attempt at dealing with sin, moreso than for a stranger from outside the familial ties. An actual stranger who is fully walking in the Spirit may have far better success in approaching the family member.

Have you ever considered getting someone from the outside to speak with her who knows how to deal with her situation? They're out there, and there may be some in her area out there in Cal.

As to that man who has turned from his son...oh, man! That's such a tragic tendency in so many fathers. Far too many fathers freak out too vehemently, and mostly out of ignorance...not knowing how to handle it all.

Look, being a good listener, as with anyone who is being counseled, is key. Starting out with trying to "fix" them is most generally the wrong approach, as you likely know. That dad needs to understand that. He probably already is aware that he blew it...or at least, I hope he does.

He will simply have to play it by ear, and it may take years to get to the point he can start dealing with the conscience of the son. That's the part of homosexuals that needs to be reconstructed. That's the key to the locked door.

Again, standing in the gap with that father can make a huge difference. It's tough, and it's a loooong journey, but the desired goal is worthwhile.

I also agree with the others here...prayer...bathing it all in prayer first and foremost.

MM
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Agreed. "Most" of the time, someone from outside of the family will have better results than from family members.
 
Major said:
I just did not want to be pushing the limits of the web site on discussing homosexuality....but since you asked.....
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I asked, because I knew you would keep it in "good taste." Remember that a great deal of the "stuff" we watch for is not actually always because of the subject, but because of historical evidence that such a discussion gets personal and otherwise ugly.

Rtm
 
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