Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching

[forgiven61]

but we have three services on Sunday

i have never been involved in a mega church like this. i prefer smaller congregations sizes then again i live in a rural area . our churches in this area roughly 50 mile radius attendance took a bad nose dive when the first round virus hit. numbers of what use to be in the solid hundred range around 35-40 . sad thing is many will never return, but as i tell my church its not coming to Church that helps. its what we get out of the service . as for me i run low numbers but seem to have the quality instead of quantity

 

[forgiven61]

500 to 1,300 people and that takes a little time to set up.

since i have been to service of this size. out of curiosity what is there to set up ? i know nothing about churches of this size. 500 people not sure i would know how to act 1300 lots of praying on my part LOrd get me through this

 

[rtm3039]

since i have been to service of this size. out of curiosity what is there to set up ? i know nothing about churches of this size. 500 people not sure i would know how to act 1300 lots of praying on my part LOrd get me through this

For the moment, because f the Covid 19 thing, there is a massive "clean up" in between services that takes about 15 - 20 minutes. The other part is just moving that many people into the worship center and dealing with potential security issues that come up almost every Sunday.

 

[rtm3039]

i have never been involved in a mega church like this. i prefer smaller congregations sizes then again i live in a rural area . our churches in this area roughly 50 mile radius attendance took a bad nose dive when the first round virus hit. numbers of what use to be in the solid hundred range around 35-40 . sad thing is many will never return, but as i tell my church its not coming to Church that helps. its what we get out of the service . as for me i run low numbers but seem to have the quality instead of quantity

Because of the size thing, we focus a great deal of attention to small groups (bible study groups). I believe we have over 400 of these groups.

Rtm

 

[AtomicSnowflake]

Dear brothers, sisters and those who are pastors;

During our Thursday evening Bible study we had a heart felt discussion about the style of preaching and as I took notes, I jotted down a few of the comments;

"Much of today's evangelical preaching is far from the sermons demonstrated by Jesus, Peter, Paul and more."

"Today's sermons can get off track from the original subject."

"Today's preachers are using too many "catchy phrases" like "let go and let God," or, "name it and claim it," or "we're not perfect, just forgiven," or, "we may be rejected but we are protected" and so on, as if catchy and clever phrases will attract and sustain the congregation."

Since I'm a preacher and have had my personal growing pains of delivering sermons, I rebutted and asked them,

"Do you feel the preacher didn't pray and is just winging it? Is the message what you don't want to hear? Are you judging the preacher's style? Or are you distracted and overlook the message that God is actually using his Shepherd to deliver?"

This was received with more comments. I was somewhat blessed to have this dialogue with the group. They do listen to many other preachers outside our church family - radio, internet, tv, etc...

I have always encouraged our church family to pray for the preacher before and during the message.

What it came down to was this; they would like today's preachers to prepare their preaching and teaching followed by the example Jesus and His messengers gave in the Gospels.

I wanted to ask if we can discuss this topic here and get your thoughts?

Thank you, everybody.

Just now seen this post! Not sure how I missed it...lol

Since you asked

"Much of today's evangelical preaching is far from the sermons demonstrated by Jesus, Peter, Paul and more."

Agreed.

1. Since when have you ever read of any of them preaching from a singe passage of scripture, and building an entire "sermon" from it? Sometimes, this can be done very well... but most of the time- it simply is not. And often fails to reach the heart of the listener. (At least for me.)
If this is done, staying within context, with supportIng scriptures, to deliver a proper, God-given message, - then great... however, most of the time, we hear one scripture, and the whole sermon is just opinion & man's words-- Use God's words!!! That's where the power is! That is why we have them! It's by using God's own words that we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us, and to reach into the hearts of others.. not our words- but HIS. (Sure, we can talk about them, how they apply to us, etc.)

2. They did not have the "new testament" to preach from... they preached the truth revealed... from the old testament, and their lives/what they witnessed. Todays preachers don't usually do this either.
I remember the old testament preaching from my childhood- it terrified me!! It was traumatic... it was all fear-based... there is no love to be found in hellfire & brimstone!

3. Many of todays preachers don't properly preach anything that is "convicting"... instead we get, "prosperity", condemnation, fear, guilt, or tolerance of everything- none of this "style" is any example set by those we read of from the scriptures!

"Today's preachers are using too many "catchy phrases" like "let go and let God," or, "name it and claim it," or "we're not perfect, just forgiven," or, "we may be rejected but we are protected" and so on, as if catchy and clever phrases will attract and sustain the congregation."

Also agreed.
We're not called to write marketing slogans. If you must do this, what's wrong with taking it from scripture?.... God IS love. Be still. Stand. Gird up! (and better ones than I've listed...lol Just saying- scripture should be "used"... not simply read.

Since I'm a preacher and have had my personal growing pains of delivering sermons

We should ALL, always keep preachers/teachers/mentors/ in our prayers! It's a very serious thing to instruct someone as directed by God! It is not to be taken lightly by anyone involved... the person speaking, and those who are receiving.

"Do you feel the preacher didn't pray and is just winging it? Is the message what you don't want to hear? Are you judging the preacher's style? Or are you distracted and overlook the message that God is actually using his Shepherd to deliver?"

-Do you feel the preacher didn't pray and is just winging it?

Sometimes, that does happen. We all know that many times, an old sermon gets pulled from a folder... sometimes it's appropriate, and follows what God has directed, other times it could be that the preacher is just blank & not feeling like he is being given anything from God to say.. other times, it's just pure laziness, or other reasons.. but it does happen. But it should not be a regular occurrence.

-Is the message what you don't want to hear?

That is a tricky question... it depends on the delivery, the motives behind it, and other things..
I can appreciate a sermon that is honestly convicting. Not all sermons will be rainbows and unicorns, nor should they be. However, even those that are convicting, must always be delivered from a heart of LOVE... not to induce a primal emotional response... but to touch the heart, allowing the Holy Spirit to minister, and promoting true conviction, that can lead to real change/growth/repentance.
== And again- we are given numerous examples of how to deliver an "unpleasant" message in the scriptures... there were many times that a letter was sent in order to instruct/correct/convict... and in every case- the motive behind it was love - in every case it was presented in love - Love must always be present.

-Are you judging the preacher's style?

I may not always personally care for a particular "style".. but so what... lol It's the message that matters. And maybe that "style" is exactly what might be needed in order to reach someone else!

-Or are you distracted and overlook the message that God is actually using his Shepherd to deliver?"

Whenever I find myself getting distracted, I make it a point to try to listen even more intently... I look at that as a trap from the enemy...lol


---> With at least one exception. - Holidays. (mother's day, father's day, july 4th, etc.)
I absolutely cannot stand holiday preaching in general. There is a whole book full of scripture that is suitable to preach a great sermon for any holiday we have... yet many preachers will bypass all those lessons, and end up "preaching" in a more secular sort of tone... It makes me feel like it's a real insult to Christ. So, anyone who is not gifted with the ability to pull together a proper Godly sermon for a holiday- might want to consider just not trying to do that.. it makes for an awful day.
(And btw- how is it that easter eggs are biblical?? How is that any different from santa at christmas? What am I supposed to tell a child about those things? -really?)

What it came down to was this; they would like today's preachers to prepare their preaching and teaching followed by the example Jesus and His messengers gave in the Gospels.

Amen!!! That's why those examples are there


All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[2 Timothy 3:16 KJV]

Notice is reads, "All scripture".... scripture- not man's words... scripture is given by God.

 

[forgiven61]

dealing with potential security issues that come up almost every Sunday.

i find this very sad a church with security times have changed i just cant imagine this ..do you have to take unruly people out ? i would hope no firearm incidents

 

[rtm3039]

i find this very sad a church with security times have changed i just cant imagine this ..do you have to take unruly people out ? i would hope no firearm incidents

I agree, but it is what it is.

Several of us are armed (including me). We also have off-duty law enforcement working with us. They are in uniform and at either the main entrance or across the street working traffic control.

Obviously, we are a church, so we try to be gentle and understanding. We do have about a half-dozen people that are not allowed on church grounds, based on prior public threats either against the church in general or a pastor in particular.

We do get some "hard heads" that push buttons and, in two cases involving me, they decided not to return to the church.

We do have some rules. One of them is that we need to inspect all backpacks before we allow someone into the actual worship center. We can't make you agree to this, but we can stop you from staying.

I had an issue with one gentleman for several weeks in a row and he finally decided to find another church. He comes to church wearing the same outfit (black combat boots, black cargo pants, black sleeved shirt, a black "head sock" that covers everything, but his eyes. which are covered by his sunglasses. He also weans what I can best describe as a small purse like device that is strapped to his thigh). If he comes in, I need to see what is in this device (which is usually his cell phone, pens, etc) and we need to go through this every time he comes in. He did not like this, so he decided to leave.

Last month, our local police had two barricaded suspects across the street and each carrying a semi-automatic rifle. They were running around the neighborhood and cops looking for them. As the church was the only open building on the block, we had to lock down the church until they were found. The good thing is that it was during our 10:45 service. We had the whole place locked down and no one attending church had a clue of what was going on. By the time service let out, both young men were in custody and even the police helicopter hovering on top of us was gone.

Rtm

 

[bobinfaith]

Just now seen this post! Not sure how I missed it...lol

Since you asked


Agreed.

1. Since when have you ever read of any of them preaching from a singe passage of scripture, and building an entire "sermon" from it? Sometimes, this can be done very well... but most of the time- it simply is not. And often fails to reach the heart of the listener. (At least for me.)
If this is done, staying within context, with supportIng scriptures, to deliver a proper, God-given message, - then great... however, most of the time, we hear one scripture, and the whole sermon is just opinion & man's words-- Use God's words!!! That's where the power is! That is why we have them! It's by using God's own words that we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us, and to reach into the hearts of others.. not our words- but HIS. (Sure, we can talk about them, how they apply to us, etc.)

2. They did not have the "new testament" to preach from... they preached the truth revealed... from the old testament, and their lives/what they witnessed. Todays preachers don't usually do this either.
I remember the old testament preaching from my childhood- it terrified me!! It was traumatic... it was all fear-based... there is no love to be found in hellfire & brimstone!

3. Many of todays preachers don't properly preach anything that is "convicting"... instead we get, "prosperity", condemnation, fear, guilt, or tolerance of everything- none of this "style" is any example set by those we read of from the scriptures!


Also agreed.
We're not called to write marketing slogans. If you must do this, what's wrong with taking it from scripture?.... God IS love. Be still. Stand. Gird up! (and better ones than I've listed...lol Just saying- scripture should be "used"... not simply read.


We should ALL, always keep preachers/teachers/mentors/ in our prayers! It's a very serious thing to instruct someone as directed by God! It is not to be taken lightly by anyone involved... the person speaking, and those who are receiving.



-Do you feel the preacher didn't pray and is just winging it?

Sometimes, that does happen. We all know that many times, an old sermon gets pulled from a folder... sometimes it's appropriate, and follows what God has directed, other times it could be that the preacher is just blank & not feeling like he is being given anything from God to say.. other times, it's just pure laziness, or other reasons.. but it does happen. But it should not be a regular occurrence.

-Is the message what you don't want to hear?

That is a tricky question... it depends on the delivery, the motives behind it, and other things..
I can appreciate a sermon that is honestly convicting. Not all sermons will be rainbows and unicorns, nor should they be. However, even those that are convicting, must always be delivered from a heart of LOVE... not to induce a primal emotional response... but to touch the heart, allowing the Holy Spirit to minister, and promoting true conviction, that can lead to real change/growth/repentance.
== And again- we are given numerous examples of how to deliver an "unpleasant" message in the scriptures... there were many times that a letter was sent in order to instruct/correct/convict... and in every case- the motive behind it was love - in every case it was presented in love - Love must always be present.

-Are you judging the preacher's style?

I may not always personally care for a particular "style".. but so what... lol It's the message that matters. And maybe that "style" is exactly what might be needed in order to reach someone else!

-Or are you distracted and overlook the message that God is actually using his Shepherd to deliver?"

Whenever I find myself getting distracted, I make it a point to try to listen even more intently... I look at that as a trap from the enemy...lol


---> With at least one exception. - Holidays. (mother's day, father's day, july 4th, etc.)
I absolutely cannot stand holiday preaching in general. There is a whole book full of scripture that is suitable to preach a great sermon for any holiday we have... yet many preachers will bypass all those lessons, and end up "preaching" in a more secular sort of tone... It makes me feel like it's a real insult to Christ. So, anyone who is not gifted with the ability to pull together a proper Godly sermon for a holiday- might want to consider just not trying to do that.. it makes for an awful day.
(And btw- how is it that easter eggs are biblical?? How is that any different from santa at christmas? What am I supposed to tell a child about those things? -really?)


Amen!!! That's why those examples are there


All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[2 Timothy 3:16 KJV]

Notice is reads, "All scripture".... scripture- not man's words... scripture is given by God.

Good morning, Atomic;

Thank you for jumping in! This topic and our posts from everyone mirrors my Bible study group last Thursday and am blessed I could share it here.

Your points are good ones that will encourage us to seek more context from the preacher's message and teacher's lessons.

From where I serve I have my questions. I know the Bible times had their distractions, persecution, the Gentile's philosophies and ways, but are these times in the church too distracted by the information age and trends?

God bless you, Atomic.

 

[forgiven61]

I agree, but it is what it is.

Several of us are armed (including me). We also have off-duty law enforcement working with us. They are in uniform and at either the main entrance or across the street working traffic control.

Obviously, we are a church, so we try to be gentle and understanding. We do have about a half-dozen people that are not allowed on church grounds, based on prior public threats either against the church in general or a pastor in particular.

We do get some "hard heads" that push buttons and, in two cases involving me, they decided not to return to the church.

We do have some rules. One of them is that we need to inspect all backpacks before we allow someone into the actual worship center. We can't make you agree to this, but we can stop you from staying.

I had an issue with one gentleman for several weeks in a row and he finally decided to find another church. He comes to church wearing the same outfit (black combat boots, black cargo pants, black sleeved shirt, a black "head sock" that covers everything, but his eyes. which are covered by his sunglasses. He also weans what I can best describe as a small purse like device that is strapped to his thigh). If he comes in, I need to see what is in this device (which is usually his cell phone, pens, etc) and we need to go through this every time he comes in. He did not like this, so he decided to leave.

Last month, our local police had two barricaded suspects across the street and each carrying a semi-automatic rifle. They were running around the neighborhood and cops looking for them. As the church was the only open building on the block, we had to lock down the church until they were found. The good thing is that it was during our 10:45 service. We had the whole place locked down and no one attending church had a clue of what was going on. By the time service let out, both young men were in custody and even the police helicopter hovering on top of us was gone.

Rtm

wow is all i can say still a sad day when the Church needs security . sounds like you have your hands full ..my hat is off to you. far as i know in our area 30 mile radius no incident like you described . that i am aware of guard them sheep, thanks for opening up a world i have never heard of with Church

 

[bobinfaith]

i find this very sad a church with security times have changed i just cant imagine this ..do you have to take unruly people out ? i would hope no firearm incidents

I agree, but it is what it is.

Several of us are armed (including me). We also have off-duty law enforcement working with us. They are in uniform and at either the main entrance or across the street working traffic control.

Obviously, we are a church, so we try to be gentle and understanding. We do have about a half-dozen people that are not allowed on church grounds, based on prior public threats either against the church in general or a pastor in particular.

We do get some "hard heads" that push buttons and, in two cases involving me, they decided not to return to the church.

We do have some rules. One of them is that we need to inspect all backpacks before we allow someone into the actual worship center. We can't make you agree to this, but we can stop you from staying.

I had an issue with one gentleman for several weeks in a row and he finally decided to find another church. He comes to church wearing the same outfit (black combat boots, black cargo pants, black sleeved shirt, a black "head sock" that covers everything, but his eyes. which are covered by his sunglasses. He also weans what I can best describe as a small purse like device that is strapped to his thigh). If he comes in, I need to see what is in this device (which is usually his cell phone, pens, etc) and we need to go through this every time he comes in. He did not like this, so he decided to leave.

Last month, our local police had two barricaded suspects across the street and each carrying a semi-automatic rifle. They were running around the neighborhood and cops looking for them. As the church was the only open building on the block, we had to lock down the church until they were found. The good thing is that it was during our 10:45 service. We had the whole place locked down and no one attending church had a clue of what was going on. By the time service let out, both young men were in custody and even the police helicopter hovering on top of us was gone.

Rtm

I have to agree with both, it's sad but it is what it is. A small, medium, large or mega church's intention is to make people feel safe and comfortable when attending worship. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean it's entirely safe.

Our church doesn't have security but there was an incident this year where a pastor candidate preaching a fine sermon when someone stormed in the sanctuary, wearing white covering over their head and shouted, "Jesus Christ is coming in 2021! Jesus Christ is coming in 2021!"

The two ushers were not prepared so I quietly got up and walked the person out. I calmly refuted the person for interrupting "the sermon" as well as the service with their false prophecy. In that moment the thought of security would have been a blessing.

The best protection we can get is requesting a police officer from their station around the corner to attend. We did this once.

 

[rtm3039]

I have to agree with both, it's sad but it is what it is. A small, medium, large or mega church's intention is to make people feel safe and comfortable when attending worship. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean it's entirely safe.

Our church doesn't have security but there was an incident this year where a pastor candidate preaching a fine sermon when someone stormed in the sanctuary, wearing white covering over their head and shouted, "Jesus Christ is coming in 2021! Jesus Christ is coming in 2021!"

The two ushers were not prepared so I quietly got up and walked the person out. I calmly refuted the person for interrupting "the sermon" as well as the service with their false prophecy. In that moment the thought of security would have been a blessing.

The best protection we can get is requesting a police officer from their station around the corner to attend. We did this once.

Yes, we had one of those a couple of months ago in one of our other campuses. It was an older lady who just got up in stage and started doing the "twist and shout."

The other side of the coin is that the church will not make itself a "gun free" zone, so many people come to church armed. We (security) wear a distinctive colored shirt and we all know each other. If something was to ever happen and members of the congregation started pulling out guns, it will not come with a happy ending.

Rtm

 

[Lanolin]

That is so strange to me what RTM has described, if there had to be security guards at church with weapons I just wouldn't even go. Most churches here just have ushers or if it's a big church someone in a flouro vest directing the car parking.

I mean there is security guards now at the mall I work in, and there were at the library, but they weren't armed.

I would go to church more to hear Gods word not really one persons's opinion of it, so I would just be happy with a Bible reading, and then maybe an interactive play based on it with people reading parts, or reading together. Or even reading in silence.

Not saying that preaching isn't important, but if it's turning into a lecture then I often switch off. After you go a couple of years and it's the same thing over and over it just gets a bit stale is what I found. The Bible is 66 books but often its the same few passages that get the sermon treatment.

If you look at Jesus sermon on the Mount it wasn't even ONE topic with 3 points or even him trying to explain himself, the Bible or even what he thought.

It was Jesus declaring God's instructions!

 

[rtm3039]

That is so strange to me what RTM has described, if there had to be security guards at church with weapons I just wouldn't even go. Most churches here just have ushers or if it's a big church someone in a flouro vest directing the car parking.

I mean there is security guards now at the mall I work in, and there were at the library, but they weren't armed.

I would go to church more to hear Gods word not really one persons's opinion of it, so I would just be happy with a Bible reading, and then maybe an interactive play based on it with people reading parts, or reading together. Or even reading in silence.

Not saying that preaching isn't important, but if it's turning into a lecture then I often switch off. After you go a couple of years and it's the same thing over and over it just gets a bit stale is what I found. The Bible is 66 books but often its the same few passages that get the sermon treatment.

If you look at Jesus sermon on the Mount it wasn't even ONE topic with 3 points or even him trying to explain himself, the Bible or even what he thought.

It was Jesus declaring God's instructions!

Well, no one actually see our weapons, they are concealed.

Obviously, one homes we are never needed, but we live in a very violent society here in the US. Churches are often times the target of hate and violence. There is an obligation to provide the peace of mind that comes with the illusion of security.

rtm

 

[forgiven61]

times have changed and not for the good .

 

[rtm3039]

times have changed and not for the good .

Pretty much...

 

[AtomicSnowflake]

are these times in the church too distracted by the information age and trends?

I don't know... perhaps too distracted by the distractions! Trying to sift through the things that are not yet understood to try to figure out which "truth" is correct... the same age-old delimas that Paul faught against... there are many false/misleading beliefs, but there is nothing new under the sun
(It's the same here on cfs, in a sense... otherwise, everyone would always agree with each other about everything, all the time... ?)

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello forgiven61;

There is nothing wrong with a long sermon. I'm trying to remember a renowned preacher around the end of the 19th century who gave an expository sermon that lasted 18 years! My curiosity is getting the better of me and will dig through my resource books and notes to find out who that was.

The time clock has to do with Ray's church structure but nothing was mentioned about a "time limit" given to the pastor's message.

Unfortunately, in these times the church congregation has limited their attention span in many churches.

For myself, I have no problem listening and enjoying a 2 hour sermon when it's anointed by God. Why not?

Sheflee (or however it was spelled)?

 

[crossnote]

Sheflee (or however it was spelled)?

Is that what happens when the sermon is finally over?

 

[Musicmaster]

Is that what happens when the sermon is finally over?

No (snicker, snicker). He was a famous minister who lived waaay back. He gave long sermons. There was a short movie in the 70's that we have on VHS, made about his life as a circuit preacher, riding from community to community on his horse, receiving sustenance from those to whom he ministered. He was very much an itinerant preacher, much like Paul of Tarsus.

Sheffey, Shefley, Shefflee...I can't find the tape right now, but it's something like that.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

We actually have a clock in the back that shows how long a message is. Once it goes to 0:00:00, the numbers change from green to red. I would say that, on average, the message itself is around 35 minutes, with about 20 minutes at the start by the worship team and admin announcement of around 5 mins at the end. Only one of our pastors get's even close, with abut 5 - 10 mins in the red.

Rtm

RTM,

How did that start? Who established that program? Was it already a tradition before you got there, or did some committee design it that way?

MM