Sheffey, It was an interesting movie regarding his life as a pastor that was looked down upon mostly because he wasn't formally trained at a seminary.
Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching
- Thread starter bobinfaith
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Sheffey, It was an interesting movie regarding his life as a pastor that was looked down upon mostly because he wasn't formally trained at a seminary.
Not sure how it started, as it was there when I first started attending. The security team also has a bible study team (aka: Small Group) and I was invited to join the security team, after I made inquiries.
In all, there are about 70 people on the team, but they are for all 7 campuses. Initially, the church did not know that some of us were carrying weapons; however, since those of us who do are regally allowed to do so, the church agreed and upped their insurance to cover possible issues.
We also use off-duty police officers; however, we went from 3 to 1 (due in part on the pandemic and lower physical attendees). We also contract out some security; however, usually only for special events. No one really like that, as these guys show up dressed like the end of the world is coming. They are just too aggressive looking for people to feel comfortable ("second change" vests, combat clothing, semi-auto rifles, pistol, and enough ammo to hold off a small terrorist cell for a week).
Most of us serve wearing these orange shirts that the congregation has learned are for security. Those of us who carry do so in a way that no one knows we are armed. We also have a couple who come in wearing "civilian" clothing, so they can go about unseen. We also have what we call "red shirts" who are volunteer medical personnel and we have at least one for every service.
We have radios and, during service, use an App to communicate with each other. We normally post people in the front row, some in the middle, and some on the balcony. I usually am position at one corner of the worship center, as this allows me to see the entire worship center and can detect something before it becomes something else. Unfortunately, while we do have a large number of volunteers, there might be 4 - 6 that actually come as scheduled. The others come once in a while, but they to got ask for a radio and do not have the App. They just wear the orange shirt and attend one service.
The "off duty" cop also gets a radio and we know each other well. There is an agreement with the police department that, in the event of a serious issue, those of us wearing orange will not be asked to evacuate and will assist local law enforcement and medical personnel. They know some of us are armed.
We train to be responsible. The objective is to stop the threat BEFORE it enters the worship center. Once inside, there are just too many people to allow for anyone to fight back with a weapon. Aside from security, we also have our "blue shirts" who are with guest services. There are way more of them than any other team. They serve as our eyes and ears throughout the campus and (they have radios too) they will alert us of anything they see what they are not comfortable with. This happens most often in and around our CF Kids Ministry, with some people trying to enter without a pass or like to hover for no apparent reason). We have all received what they call a "level 2" security clearance which Florida requires before you can hand around kids. We try to handle issues on our own; however, it it gets confrontational, we usually have the off-duty cop enter and do his thing.
We have a security director and two assistant directors. At least one of them attends every service and provide pastoral escorts while on campus (especially if they want to "meet and greet" in between services). In the event of an issue, we have a "green room" where we can secure the pastor and his family (if they are in attendance). We also kind of provide some surveillance of the lead pastor's house (it is church property and located across the street), as there have been at least three incidents in which people tried to intimidate the pastor's wife by showing up at their front door. The last time was a month ago, when some people in a black SUV drove up against their back fence and started to rev their engine. The pastor was away on a trip. His wife called us. When we got there, the SUV was leaving, so we followed, took some pics of the license plate, and provided the info to our off-duty cop. Now the on-duty cops that patrol the area make it a point to drive by and around the pastor's residence. We also secure the offerings made in person and dropped off at one of the collection point throughout the worship center. We just collect, seal in a plastic bag, and drop into the safe in the main office.
Well, that's about it. I personally think we need additional training, but that is a whole other story.
Rtm
Oh wait, were you asking about the clock?
Ok, it too was there when I showed up. Our services are live streamed to the remaining 6 campuses, the on-line ministry, and some of our churches in South America. Because of this, we have a large media center (we call it "production") with multiple cameras, sound equipment, etc. It is usually a one hour service three times on Sunday and twice on Saturday. Because of the various components, it has to be controlled. The clock ticks off for the worship team (about 20 mins) the message (abut 35 mins) and closing announcements (5 mins). The message really has no time limit, so is usually runs long by 5 - 15 minutes).
It is a really large clock (actually, two TV screen) that has the actual time and service time on one side and a summary of the message language on the other side). Not the whole language, but just enough for the pastor to know where he is at and what comes next.
Rtm
The up-side of security in vests and clearly visible is the deterrence that gives to any would-be activists and terrorists who would think that congregation an easy target. They are also well aware of the unmarked members who also would be present, and able to provide additional defense. I think all the men and able women should carry, in all places throughout all culture. I remember the liberal elements of our state crying the blues when the unlicensed conceal carry was implemented. They claimed we'd find ourselves in the middle of a constant, wild west, daily shoot-outs all over the larger cities...none of which happened. Crime actually decreased, and local police liked the idea of more citizens going about, armed. They prefer the bad guy having already been subdued or taken out before they get there. Makes their job easier and safer for them.
MM
My issue is that there really are some people who should not carry a weapon. In the wrong hands, even is those hands are attached to a "good guy," it can be as dangerous as the threat itself.
I know way too many people that take a one-day course, go to the range to fire off the 10 compulsory rounds for familiarization, and start to carry. Some of these guys do not even know how to take a weapon apart, much less deal with potential mechanical issues.
One of our team members usually carries what can be described as a small cannon. You can see the bulge in his shirt from 20 feet away. I believe it is a .45, but I have never asked. That type of power in an area with large number of people is a tragedy waiting to happen. Some folks do not understand that we need to avoid the gun play as much as possible. If this guy fires a round, assuming he hits his target, it will take other targets behind the intended recipient.
Personally, I believe every gun owner that carries should be required to quality yearly; I have to. They should also show proficiency in the mechanics like windage, elevation, cover vs concealment, ammunition types, etc.
I have 12 handguns, but only carry 1: S&W 9mm Shield. The ammo I carry is the lightest on the market (50 grain) and I went ahead and installed a laser sight. The Shield is a thin weapon, so easy to conceal. The laser sight is on point, so I do not have to spend time aiming and the projectile will land where the red dot is. The 50 grain ammo means minimal penetration, which prevents collateral damage. Because of how light it is, it leaves the weapon at around 1,000 fps, which means no drop for at least 100 feet. It is a tradeoff from the stopping power of a heavier bullet, but it is a tradeoff I can live with.
Rtm
yea I heard in US churches get bombed quite a bit.
And school shootings.
Here, a mosque got a shooting in Christchuch from a mad neo-nazi type white supremacist. It's hard to think it was racially motivated or religiously but probably both.
I wouldn't feel secure at all with weapons, even concealed ones. In event of a shooting, we just get taught to get out of sight and hide. We don't fight back because NZ's violent history was with the musket wars, which was basically when everyone wanted a gun (called muskets in those days, don't ask me why) , and that turned into a huge war. Maori would trade their goods, food anything to have these new fangled European guns, and then they would fight each others tribes for land and then what happened because of superior firepower the Europeans pretty much annexed most of nz and when their population grew and grew and Maori were dying from disease and stuff they just couldn't fight back even with the guns as they then had no food.
Upshot of this is, guns are not used in NZ to shoot people. They are only meant to be used for hunting and killing animals..
If you fire at someone it is a no-no and you can't say its for self-defence either. You are supposed to have responsibility if you own a gun to use it for the correct purpose.
Well, we do not get bombed that often, but there are quite a bit of shootings. For the most part, the majority of gun owners site self-protection as the reason for owning a weapon. I think hunting and sport are the next two reasons, but not sure in what order.
We have the same philosophy and it comes with a poster:
The only problem is that you can't outrun a bullet and hiding mostly just makes you feel better. Our schools have an active-shooter video we have to watch every year, but it is silly. The video is recorded in a very large warehouse where there are many places to run and hide. If you are i a classroom, those options are very limited.
Running and hiding are the best alternatives, but you only get the opportunity to fight once and it should be taken.
A couple of years ago (well, 2916), someone went into a club and shot 49 people dead and I can't recall how many were wounded. The sad thing was that, as the shooter was standing in the middle of the club changing magazines, no one took advantage of the opportunity to rush the guy. My recollection is that he was actually standing and surrounded by people on the floor and no one thought about jumping him.
I guess none of us really know how we are going to react, until the time comes to react.
Usually the lone wolf types are 'mental cases'...neither race or politics or religion is the bottom line.
i agree weapons concealed or in the open dont concern me. its the owner who does.. i am in rural Ozarks MO lots backwoods places you need pump sun into.. this is no joke on the description . around here gun owner ship is huge trophy. but some have a lose screw and not very self constrained . then some get drunk and drop a loaded weapon on the floor it go off.. * true story^ one guy was more or less playing Russian roulette drinking ..needless say he is no longer here . my bro n law has a weapon i told him if he carries it, make sure he knows when to use it.. its about responsivity. hunting self defense/security . my hat is off to rtm security team , looks like i live a sheltered life and i like it. i do find it a shame that there has be security like that in church..
Ozarks, MO.... Do you know where Kennett, MO and/or Hornersville, MO is/are?
self protection seems a bit absurd to me.
If I were to own a gun it would only be if I was using it to shoot pigs or deer or goats to eat them.
I live in a country if a mad gunman decides to goes on a rampage the best thing is to stay out of his way. It's up to the Armed Offenders Squad to deal with them not ordinary citizens.
Fortunately it does not happen that often but when it does it gets more publicity than it deserves. When there's domestic violence involved, which is mostly the case in many incidents thankfully most husbands do not have guns so don't shoot their wives or vice versa. Mostly police deal with drug addicts and people doing stupid things while intoxicated, robbery, speeding. People generally respect each others property and there are enough public spaces you can go where you don't have to wear a full body suit thinking some random person is going to shoot you. Its mostly people that are known to each other and hate each other that are more likely to be involved in violence. Love is a protective force.
Most people wouldn't go off wandering alone by themselves in the dark especially if they female, thats just common sense.
If I were to own a gun it would only be if I was using it to shoot pigs or deer or goats to eat them.
I live in a country if a mad gunman decides to goes on a rampage the best thing is to stay out of his way. It's up to the Armed Offenders Squad to deal with them not ordinary citizens.
Fortunately it does not happen that often but when it does it gets more publicity than it deserves. When there's domestic violence involved, which is mostly the case in many incidents thankfully most husbands do not have guns so don't shoot their wives or vice versa. Mostly police deal with drug addicts and people doing stupid things while intoxicated, robbery, speeding. People generally respect each others property and there are enough public spaces you can go where you don't have to wear a full body suit thinking some random person is going to shoot you. Its mostly people that are known to each other and hate each other that are more likely to be involved in violence. Love is a protective force.
Most people wouldn't go off wandering alone by themselves in the dark especially if they female, thats just common sense.
Those who live by the sword die by the sword
check out Matthew 26:52-55
Jesus was saying that he had a tonne of angels to call on. He never had to carry a sword in his ministry, and he didn't need his disciples to be his bodyguards either. He just wanted their prayers.
I know I'd rather have people praying for me then ten bodyguards with a guns.
JFK had an entire armed secret service riding with him in a motorcade and even they couldn't stop a bullet. But I suppose that assassination was so public that all of the US got paranoid over that.
In NZ its more likely you get shot at by accident if out hunting and the hunter mistakenly thinks you are an animal.
check out Matthew 26:52-55
Jesus was saying that he had a tonne of angels to call on. He never had to carry a sword in his ministry, and he didn't need his disciples to be his bodyguards either. He just wanted their prayers.
I know I'd rather have people praying for me then ten bodyguards with a guns.
JFK had an entire armed secret service riding with him in a motorcade and even they couldn't stop a bullet. But I suppose that assassination was so public that all of the US got paranoid over that.
In NZ its more likely you get shot at by accident if out hunting and the hunter mistakenly thinks you are an animal.
ozarks is wide stretch in land yes i know where ozark mo is i just came through there yesterday from Branson i know where Kennett, is Honorsville roughly never been there so when i say Ozarks i am speaking of home of the current river i am in Doniphan about 2 hours east of Ozark mo you would follow 60 east to 21 north to 160 i i am originally from a town north of Doniphan called Grandin MO, it is a very rural area the Ozarks all along 59 highway with little towns all over back roads Ozark mo pretty good size town we usually stop there on the way to Branson you got roots in this area? ozarsks is west of me Kennett, is south eastern of me more flat lands i live in the hills
Being military trained in tactics and combat, I would be hard pressed to countenance yearly training at the civilian level. They would hate me being there. Identifying threats and hitting what you're aiming at is a discipline that, as you stated, can't be possessed in such a short course to qualify, and yearly training won't do them any good either. You have to live it. That's the only way it becomes a part of your reflex.
That one dude you spoke of who carries that "cannon" under his shirt, I'm wondering if he knows anything about ballistics. I have no problem with someone carrying a full fledged .45, or even a 44 magnum (although a Dassault would be highly overkill, unless dealing with terrorists who are in vests), as long as they have the right kind of slugs that will not go through the intended target to hit someone else. Gun range loads are smooth, rounded nose slugs that will go right through a person if not stopped by a large enough bone mass in its trajectory.
Anyway, your comments lead to yet another topical discussion about collateral damage from the good guys. Putting a hypothetical out there, if I were to suffer the loss of even a family member from friendly fire in an attempt to take out the bad guy mass killer(s), I would keep my finger of blame fixated at those who created the situation in the first place. The anti-gun people out there who fixate only on the origin of the slug, that's messed up.
Why?
Mass shooters create a theater of combat, and in combat where people die, and things are broken. Many states have laws protecting first responders from prosecution if and when their rescue efforts do more harm than good, and take a life or do more harm. The intent for good is the core at which such laws are directed. Some would say, "Oh yeah, well let's see if you would still say all that if it were your wife and child who were killed in such a scenario."
Frankly, I'm not one of the many feeble-minded who allows situational ethics to govern my outlook. My love for the Lord has driven me to seek the Lord's perspective in ALL things (1 Thess. 5:21), no matter how deeply any of it affects me and those I love with familial love. In addition to that, when it's the time for my wife or children to leave this world, and knowing the will of the Lord is served in ALL situations, me directing anger at, for example, the surviving good guy who accidentally ended the life of my loved one when trying to defend us all, that isn't godly, and it doesn't reflect God's Spirit filling me. Far too many people allow their strong emotions to govern them, rather than the other way around. This unthinking culture of ours is nothing new at all...given there's nothing new under the sun.
Besides, the living torture of being the guy who accidentally shot an innocent when trying to take out the bad guy, he will have to live with that the rest of his life regardless, and piling onto him my accusatory finger will not make it any better. We are called by the Lord to be healers of hearts and souls. Being angry at the mass shooter will never compare to what he will face in eternity. Being angry at the good guy...that only speaks of a very worldly and fleshly outlook that, for any of us who harbor that, should push us to even more to seek those ways and those thoughts of the Lord that, otherwise, are higher than ours as the heavens are above the earth.
I always encourage everyone to ASK the Lord for His ways and His thoughts. Much of them are higher than ours because we mostly never ask for them. They remain higher because we can't grasp them on our own. The Lord, on the other hand, when asked, can and will give them plentifully, to the extent He knows you can handle them, and therefore to the extent He so chooses.
MM
I can understand what you're saying, but I can also say that being around weapons shouldn't be the issue so much as the potential against which the carriers are there to deal with. Potential mass shooters are all around us when you consider how many mentally and emotionally imbalanced people there are in our midst. I feel far less safe when considering that I may be sitting next to an unarmed (at the moment) potential mass shooter than someone who is armed and willing to protect me and my family form an active shooter.
Yes, I realize mass media and corrupt politicians are pushing hard to program the culture toward a fear of peaceful and law abiding citizens carrying guns. That's messed up, and I hate it that they have so many in the world following them so blindly by adopting that fear. I hope you don't allow yourself to be programmed by those types who refuse to stop the murder of the the most vulnerable, but will declare godly and/or law abiding citizens carrying guns to be criminals and violators of decency. I want them carrying guns as God's instruments for instantaneously sending the bad guys and mass shooters to the Lord for HIM to judge. The Lord never commanded against killing. He commanded against murder. There's a HUGE difference, even though followers of the extremes of liberal theology and politics say otherwise...the very people who promote the murder of the most innocent, and who call evil good, and good evil.
So, it seems reasonable that modern preaching today can and should promote a healthy defense of armed citizenry to assist in law enforcement and protection of our children and families.
MM
Oh, don't worry. Where the scriptures talk about the end times when the "wild beasts" will be an additional blight and problem to humanity, that also includes bacterial and viral "beasts". I too once thought that context was talking only about the larger beasties we can see with our eyes, and that have large teeth and claws...nope. It's far more reaching than I had originally thought.
MM
I was floored when I saw that story of some school somewhere with classrooms that had buckets of rocks for the students to allegedly "pelt" the mass shooter with as he or they entered the classroom. What a crock! One or two shots into the room and those kids will be cowering rather than throwing rocks...unless they are put through drills to continue throwing rocks no matter what is shot in at them. Unless they grow up with that kind of training, it's just a warm fuzzie fantasy. Even if governments succeed in taking guns from citizenry, the crooks will still always have them, we you well know, as will the politicians who turn out to be tyrants.
Context, my friend. Carrying weapons to protect others is not what "living by the sword" means. I wish people would stop misinterpreting the ancient lingo and forcing upon it modern reinterpretations to fit some political narrative. Those who "lived by the sword" were the type doing with those swords what was unlawful and evil. Cops carry guns, and many of them die from vehicular incidents than by guns. Please study the word of God for what it's actually saying rather than to see it through the horribly clouded lenses of politics in NZ and other countries spouting political correctness. Europe has now implemented "knife control" laws. People are going to continue killing others, whether they have guns, knives, sticks off a yard tree...whatever. It's not the weapon of choice, it's the people who are the problem that tyrants don't want us to be able to protect against, including them...
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