Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching

[Marilyn C]

Hello Marilyn C;

Your outline and Scriptures does point in the right direction of Constructive Preaching. This topic veered off onto the virus and as I hone in back to the verb of the thread; Constructive Criticism in Today's Preaching;

Since March 2020 the virus has impacted the daily lives of most everyone on all four corners of the Earth. The virus brought about uncertainty, fear, social, relationships, financial strain, illness, death and more. It's a big world.

But our Christian responsibility is to combat the virus condition as well as other conditions with sound teaching of the Bible, sound preaching of
the Word and daily application of our faith, prayer, love and purification of all God already knows and all that He is doing.

The faith and all peoples need context in the reading, teaching and preaching of the Word of God. People want more than instruction but examples of the application is also vital.

​

Hi Bob,

I don`t see that we are to `combat` the disease, beyond being careful in everyday life, as with all other diseases. They are a product of the fall and will continue till death is done away with. Our job as believers is not to `fix` this world and its ills, but to bring people to Christ and disciple them. Helping the poor, sick and hurting is an overflow of Christ`s love for people in our hearts.

I would rather say we are to `combat` the fear that people have taken on due to media hype and misinformation. Jesus even told us this would happen.

`....men`s hearts failing from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth...` (Luke 21: 26)

Marilyn

 

[Major]

I think govts can advise people but they cannot actually force people (in terms of safety) to comply.
Some people are just rebels and refuse to comply with anything regardless if it was the govt or not. If you have a population that doesn't trust in the govt they may have elected, then they will be ineffective no matter what mandates they have in place.

If someone was paying someone else to get vaccinated, or you got a free pizza voucher (or whatever) there may be more uptake, but then how does that cross the line into bribery. When I got vaccinated I just got a free sticker lol. My life I feel is important because I have people I don't want to lose and if I died, they would miss me and I would miss them.

Sometimes people feel life is so hard already that if they die it would be one less burden. People actually think that way.
Others may be like, they refuse to do anything they hadn't thought of themselves, but if so, why haven't these people been working round the clock coming up with their own vaccine and trying to save other peoples lives? Is it because they don't care? I don't know. A lot of people are like its only ok my life isn't disrupted. But thing is life isn't like that, for most part, there will be feast years and unfortunatley there will be famine years. Some people need to think beyond themselves.

Ok if you are one of the rare people that is totally self sufficient and does everything yourself and exhausts yourself in the process. But people have families, and there is a lot of pressure on people to continue doing things the same as they have always done, regardless.

if its out of sight, for some people it's out of mind. When the virus first hit, many people thought oh its just China's problem. And China and chinese people were vilified because it was seen as all their fault. Well no actually it's a HUMAN problem. I have a lot of empathy for China with such a huge population trying to survive and provide rice and sustenance for their billions of people, they have continued for THOUSANDS of years in their land and they haven't tried to take over anybody else's and appropriate it unlike many other nations. Their motives have never been to displace people. Yes they sometimes cannot manage and do need outside help but they have done by trading in goods and not by trying to imposing their culture on others or via slavery. I think whatever the faults of communism, they tried to work something that was going to be better than the feudal system they had previously. Of course for most it didn't work but see the only thing is when they saw that people would sell their land and if they had money they could then buy it. Yet for those with cultures who depend on land for a living there is no way they would ever even think of selling their land. that is why capitalism doesn't work either. But people here in nz are selling their land right and left.

Anyway sorry, just rambling.

Just to make sure you know.....always get the facts before rambling, In the case known as Jacobson v. Massachusetts, in 1905 the USA Supreme Court upheld the USA governments position of forced vaccinations by allowing the SMALL POX vaccinations.

It set the president. Writing for the majority, Justice John Marshall Harlan acknowledged the fundamental importance of personal freedom, but also recognized that “the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”

That ruling was uphelp in 1922 in a case in Texas. The Supreme Court rulled the same and Justice Louis Brandeis wrote in the unanimous decision: “Long before this suit was instituted, Jacobson v. Massachusetts had settled that it is within the police power of a state to provide for compulsory vaccination. These ordinances confer not arbitrary power, but only that broad discretion required for the protection of the public health.”

The Attorney General announced that the Justice Dept. would NOT seek prosecution of companies who required Covid 19 vaccinations to be employed.

 

[Major]

Hello MM;

Jesus addressed the people, sinners, religious leaders and other god worshippers on all agendas in His 3 year mission. How could our Lord and Savior cover so much in 3 years before going to the cross and saying to the Father, "it is finished?" Amazing!

Ministers today need to be diligent in preparing the tough message regarding issues of these times. There is a lot to cover and if they are not aware, then "picking and choosing" what to talk about is not good exegesis. That is not preaching.

(Without targeting a religion, god or doctrine) About 7 years ago, I listened to a minister (whose mother died) at a funeral speak, and seeing that the sanctuary was full of family and friends that he had not seen for some time, raised his voice and said, "Hey! Whether you believe in this god, or practice that, we all serve the same god!"

This was a Christian funeral and the people upon hearing this, went along with him. I was floored!

As the called minister must seek and serve the Lord in all diligence, we also must pray, asking God to guide the preacher or teacher following the example the Lord left to us.

Yes sir........I have heard the very same thing!

Many years ago (over 50) a relative of mine died. His wife was a regular, Faithfull attender at her church. Her husband who died was in that church one time in his life, On a mothers day for high attendance he came to please his wife. The only thing that he did was at one time he learned to play the song, "Wild Wood Flower" on a guitar and his family claimed that as his salvation experience.

For his funeral, her pastor "preached" that man to heaven. He said......brother Paul Loved his church! Brother Paul loved God!
That pastor not only embarrassed himself just to comfort his church member, he made God out to be a liar!

I said right then that this old boy (Me) would never ever do that kind of thing. Over the years I have told many people who asked me to preach a funeral for a family member that they probably needed to ask someone else because I would not lie to make them feel better about a persons decision on where he would spend eternity and I would not use the words......"I do not know where old Fred is".

 

[Musicmaster]

MM, or others,

Please can you show me specifically where Jesus spoke against the Political system and / or Political people of His day?

I do NOT see that the Lord came to `fix` the world system, that is under the sway of the evil one. Jesus did not call out Herod or Pilate, or even call down a legion of angels to beat the Roman Empire.

Jesus says by His Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul - ` No one engaged in warfare ENTANGLES himself with the affairs of this life, in order that he may please Him who enlisted him as a soldier.` (2 Tim. 2: 4)

Good question.

I've heard many a ministry sermon on the political power of the Pharisees, of which Jesus addressed.

Matthew 23:27, 29
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. ... 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,...

Allow me to share from another site a small segment of their overall presentation:

"How many Pharisees were there at this time?
Only a few thousand but they wielded religious, social and political power far greater than their numbers. A large proportion of the seventy or so seats in the Sanhedrin, the ruling council of Israel, were occupied by the Pharisees." (https://www.bibleversestudy.com/johngospel/john7-pharisees.htm)

They wielded the power to enforce not only God's law over the Jewish people and nation, but also to create traditions enforced against the people to the point that Jesus rebuked them in very stern and condemnatory terms, as you're well aware.

Was Jesus addressing a system? Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The pharisaical system, but that time, had become a corrupt one:

Matthew 23:13-15, 23, 25
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. ... 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. ... 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

He didn't speak openly against the Romans because that was not His purpose. However, the presence of the Roman legionnaires didn't detract away from the political arm of power wielded by the Pharisees over the people in matters of not only religion, but also social and cultural rule. They had guards whom they sent out to arrest and seize from and among the people whatever they deemed appropriate for retaining peace and the well-being of the nation, although it was an occupied one.

Hope that addresses your question.

I encourage ministers to continue providing the similarities and contrasts between the Pharisees and godly rule, and what it looks like.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

Hi Bob,

I don`t see that we are to `combat` the disease, beyond being careful in everyday life, as with all other diseases. They are a product of the fall and will continue till death is done away with. Our job as believers is not to `fix` this world and its ills, but to bring people to Christ and disciple them. Helping the poor, sick and hurting is an overflow of Christ`s love for people in our hearts.

I would rather say we are to `combat` the fear that people have taken on due to media hype and misinformation. Jesus even told us this would happen.

`....men`s hearts failing from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth...` (Luke 21: 26)

Marilyn

Hello Marilyn;

I feel we're on the same page.

But to make clear of my wording, when we "combat" the virus condition as well as other conditions is with sound teaching of the Bible, sound preaching of the Word and daily application of our faith, prayer, love and purification

Our job as believers is not to `fix` this world and its ills, but to bring people to Christ and disciple them. - quote Marilyn

of all God already knows and all that He is doing, means He is the Fixer.

I just want to make clear what I am saying which helps in my dialogue and posting with others.

God bless you, Marilyn, and your family.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello Marilyn;

I feel we're on the same page.

But to make clear of my wording, when we "combat" the virus condition as well as other conditions is with sound teaching of the Bible, sound preaching of the Word and daily application of our faith, prayer, love and purification

Our job as believers is not to `fix` this world and its ills, but to bring people to Christ and disciple them. - quote Marilyn

of all God already knows and all that He is doing, means He is the Fixer.

I just want to make clear what I am saying which helps in my dialogue and posting with others.

God bless you, Marilyn, and your family.

Thanks Bob,

Yes on my second reading, (not just quickly) I realised that you said `combat with sound teaching.` So good, and I agree that is what is needed. Too much focusing on the problem when the Lord is the answer. Sorry that I didn`t correct that.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Good question.

I've heard many a ministry sermon on the political power of the Pharisees, of which Jesus addressed.

Matthew 23:27, 29
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. ... 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,...

Allow me to share from another site a small segment of their overall presentation:

"How many Pharisees were there at this time?
Only a few thousand but they wielded religious, social and political power far greater than their numbers. A large proportion of the seventy or so seats in the Sanhedrin, the ruling council of Israel, were occupied by the Pharisees." (https://www.bibleversestudy.com/johngospel/john7-pharisees.htm)

They wielded the power to enforce not only God's law over the Jewish people and nation, but also to create traditions enforced against the people to the point that Jesus rebuked them in very stern and condemnatory terms, as you're well aware.

Was Jesus addressing a system? Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The pharisaical system, but that time, had become a corrupt one:

Matthew 23:13-15, 23, 25
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. ... 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. ... 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

He didn't speak openly against the Romans because that was not His purpose. However, the presence of the Roman legionnaires didn't detract away from the political arm of power wielded by the Pharisees over the people in matters of not only religion, but also social and cultural rule. They had guards whom they sent out to arrest and seize from and among the people whatever they deemed appropriate for retaining peace and the well-being of the nation, although it was an occupied one.

Hope that addresses your question.

I encourage ministers to continue providing the similarities and contrasts between the Pharisees and godly rule, and what it looks like.

MM

Thanks MM for that explanation.

As I see it Israel is an earthly nation and as such their rulership was by priests, (and a king when allowed). However the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism that is not of any Worldly System. We are to obey governments and laws when they do not conflict with God`s word to us, however we are not to get `entangled with the affairs of this life,` (2 Tim. 2: 4)

Care to comment on that scripture?

 

[Musicmaster]

Thanks MM for that explanation.

As I see it Israel is an earthly nation and as such their rulership was by priests, (and a king when allowed). However the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism that is not of any Worldly System. We are to obey governments and laws when they do not conflict with God`s word to us, however we are not to get `entangled with the affairs of this life,` (2 Tim. 2: 4)

Care to comment on that scripture?

Well, let's see here:

The term in the KJV, the definition in relation to the verse grammatical construct is said to be this in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon; prosecution of any affair; business, occupation: plural with the addition of τοῦ βίου, pursuits and occupations pertaining to civil life, opposed to warfare (A. V. the affairs of this life), 2 Timothy 2:4

So, given this definition, among several, because of its grammatical and contextual fit in the Greek language, doesn't apply an injunction against involvement in government. As you seemed to note, the Pharisees were both governmental and religious oversight authorities, although in relation to the Jews. As to the Church, I don't see that 2 Timothy 2:4 applies a new injunction against followers of Christ being involved with influencing government compliance to the founding morals and ethics upon which this nation was founded.

Let's look at that verse more carefully, and for the benefit of providing a positive encouragement for modern preaching on this topic:

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

That's a direct reference to a soldier in service and in a literal war.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon for the translation to "warreth" is said, in that context and grammatical construct, to mean; properly, of soldiers, Luke 3:14; 1 Corinthians 9:7; 2 Timothy 2:4

A soldier can't plow his fields and lead and/or fight in a war at the same time. Leaving his post because it's harvest season, well, that can be very inconvenient to his commanders and the nation as a whole. Paul was simply making a point. Therefore, contrary to contextual revisionists whom I've heard many times apply this against political involvement by those within the Church, neither the context nor grammar demand cessation from involvement in the governmental affairs of one's nation in order to uphold moral laws and governmental conduct.

Additionally, the idea some seem to enjoy in trying to convince us to divorce ourselves from the necessity for following examples of the very conduct of even John the Baptist, who directly and openly called out the evils of incest among one of the top leaders over Israel, that wall they're trying to build between that man and us is a precarious invention derived from man-made doctrine.

I don't know exactly where you stand on this topic, and I'm not trying to take jabs at you personally, but it is a wearisome practice I see being perpetrated across the entire spectrum of Christianity where a hand full of passivists are exercising all manner of intellectual gymnastics with the biblical texts to try and manipulate fellow believers into becoming fellow passivists; who sit back and do nothing to assault the gates of Hell, which we are promised cannot and will not prevail against our assaults. Philosophies applied to try and limit the scope of those assaults to merely "religious matters" (as they have told me before), no. That simply is indefensible so far as I can see. Passivism plays right into the hands of Satan.

Good topic, MC.

MM

 

[Marilyn C]

Well, let's see here:

The term in the KJV, the definition in relation to the verse grammatical construct is said to be this in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon; prosecution of any affair; business, occupation: plural with the addition of τοῦ βίου, pursuits and occupations pertaining to civil life, opposed to warfare (A. V. the affairs of this life), 2 Timothy 2:4

So, given this definition, among several, because of its grammatical and contextual fit in the Greek language, doesn't apply an injunction against involvement in government. As you seemed to note, the Pharisees were both governmental and religious oversight authorities, although in relation to the Jews. As to the Church, I don't see that 2 Timothy 2:4 applies a new injunction against followers of Christ being involved with influencing government compliance to the founding morals and ethics upon which this nation was founded.

Let's look at that verse more carefully, and for the benefit of providing a positive encouragement for modern preaching on this topic:

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

That's a direct reference to a soldier in service and in a literal war.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon for the translation to "warreth" is said, in that context and grammatical construct, to mean; properly, of soldiers, Luke 3:14; 1 Corinthians 9:7; 2 Timothy 2:4

A soldier can't plow his fields and lead and/or fight in a war at the same time. Leaving his post because it's harvest season, well, that can be very inconvenient to his commanders and the nation as a whole. Paul was simply making a point. Therefore, contrary to contextual revisionists whom I've heard many times apply this against political involvement by those within the Church, neither the context nor grammar demand cessation from involvement in the governmental affairs of one's nation in order to uphold moral laws and governmental conduct.

Additionally, the idea some seem to enjoy in trying to convince us to divorce ourselves from the necessity for following examples of the very conduct of even John the Baptist, who directly and openly called out the evils of incest among one of the top leaders over Israel, that wall they're trying to build between that man and us is a precarious invention derived from man-made doctrine.

I don't know exactly where you stand on this topic, and I'm not trying to take jabs at you personally, but it is a wearisome practice I see being perpetrated across the entire spectrum of Christianity where a hand full of passivists are exercising all manner of intellectual gymnastics with the biblical texts to try and manipulate fellow believers into becoming fellow passivists; who sit back and do nothing to assault the gates of Hell, which we are promised cannot and will not prevail against our assaults. Philosophies applied to try and limit the scope of those assaults to merely "religious matters" (as they have told me before), no. That simply is indefensible so far as I can see. Passivism plays right into the hands of Satan.

Good topic, MC.

MM

Hi Mm,

I hear you loud and NOT clear, so am trying to get clarity.

I agree that we are to be a voice regarding moral issues. However as regarding `assaulting the gates of hell,` `What do you hope and pray for?` - a righteous government?

Marilyn.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi Mm,

I hear you loud and NOT clear, so am trying to get clarity.

I agree that we are to be a voice regarding moral issues. However as regarding `assaulting the gates of hell,` `What do you hope and pray for?` - a righteous government?

Marilyn.

Hi, MN

I do pray for a righteous government, but with my eye upon the present and coming Kingdom of Heaven in the Kingdom described in Revelation and Zechariah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, et al, which will be the only time this earth will have a true Theocracy with Christ physically occupying the throne in Jerusalem.

No government of man can be righteous. What I also pray for is that our prayerful assault against the gates of Hell, behind which are the powers and principalities who are empowering the wickedness in governments trying to enslave the peoples of this world.

An important caveat to that, however, is this: The lack of success in the Church's assault against those gates, which have been successful many times in the past, points to another eminent event that I will not name, but only address attention to Luke 21:34-36. Many whom I have shared a look at those verses, in their context, put together the parallel of the ten virgins. Those who were not watching, and who were not praying to be counted worthy to escape all that is to come, and to stand before the Son of Man, and therefore left outside the coming wedding feast celebration, they will then understand why the power of the Church against the gates of Hell sank into decline. Those five foolish virgins left outside were still virgins, right? It seems as though many a true believer who was caught up in the cares and things of this world will be...left outside as were the five who did not have that extra oil rooted in preparedness.

I'm hoping that more ministers will sound this loudly and repeatedly in an attempt to wake more people up from the spell and lure of the things of this world, so that they do not find themselves as believers counted among those five foolish left outside, even though they had returned with oil and burning lamps, they were still refused entry, and thus left outside.

Be watchful, folks, and pray ALWAYS, as Jesus commanded in Luke 21. Every day, pray for His counting you worthy to escape all that is to come. Do it without fail, for we know not the day nor the hour, but we will know the season.

MM

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi, MN

I do pray for a righteous government, but with my eye upon the present and coming Kingdom of Heaven in the Kingdom described in Revelation and Zechariah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, et al, which will be the only time this earth will have a true Theocracy with Christ physically occupying the throne in Jerusalem.

No government of man can be righteous. What I also pray for is that our prayerful assault against the gates of Hell, behind which are the powers and principalities who are empowering the wickedness in governments trying to enslave the peoples of this world.

An important caveat to that, however, is this: The lack of success in the Church's assault against those gates, which have been successful many times in the past, points to another eminent event that I will not name, but only address attention to Luke 21:34-36. Many whom I have shared a look at those verses, in their context, put together the parallel of the ten virgins. Those who were not watching, and who were not praying to be counted worthy to escape all that is to come, and to stand before the Son of Man, and therefore left outside the coming wedding feast celebration, they will then understand why the power of the Church against the gates of Hell sank into decline. Those five foolish virgins left outside were still virgins, right? It seems as though many a true believer who was caught up in the cares and things of this world will be...left outside as were the five who did not have that extra oil rooted in preparedness.

I'm hoping that more ministers will sound this loudly and repeatedly in an attempt to wake more people up from the spell and lure of the things of this world, so that they do not find themselves as believers counted among those five foolish left outside, even though they had returned with oil and burning lamps, they were still refused entry, and thus left outside.

Be watchful, folks, and pray ALWAYS, as Jesus commanded in Luke 21. Every day, pray for His counting you worthy to escape all that is to come. Do it without fail, for we know not the day nor the hour, but we will know the season.

MM

Hi MM,

I certainly agree with you, however what you have said does NOT show that storming the gates of hell will change the Political arena. I hear your desire to help people who are under the sway of the evil one over the World System. However praying against the principalities and powers behind the Political arena is not the way. For as you well said `No government of man can be righteous.`

Man`s governments are - democratic, (people`s rule) autocratic, dictatorship, Socialist, Communist, etc etc. All of man and destined for judgment not to be changed or fixed.

Glad you spoke of the Lord`s coming righteous rule, which will be through Israel over the nations as promised in God`s word.

I like also how you desire ministers, (as all of us) to try and wake people up from the spell and lure of the world. That then is an individual battle spoken of by John.

`Do not love the world or the things in the world.....the world (system) is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.` (1 John 2: 15 - 17)

We are told however to pray against Principalities and powers, wickedness.... in relation to every thought and argument against the truth of Christ.

`For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 4 - 6)

Marilyn.

 

[Lanolin]

methinks MM has got his wires crossed.

If he ends up on the wrong side well, it was said in the Bible that God will send a strong delusion and people then think they are doing God a favour when they aren't. They will believe a lie about who God is (and no, He isn't in any human govt..because we only have ONE Lord)

As far as enslaving peoples of the world are concerned...it's not just governments that do this. YOU may even do it when you employ someone and pay them less than they are worth, buy luxury goods that are made by slaves, or treat someone like they are a nothing and not seeing their humanity.

That coffee you drink? Made by slaves in South America
Sugar? Made by slaves in the West Indies
Jeans made by slaves in China

How bout waking up to that. You don't go and ASSAULT a government or a people who are doing wrong. You just pray they will be set free. That they will hear the gospel and know the truth and be set free indeed. We have no business going up against systems that we know will just be a big war that will benefit NOBODY. I don't want a world war 3. You want to be a hero and go on another bloodthirsty crusade? Thats just what Satan wants you to do!

We still have to live in the aftermath of the last one!

God said venegeance is mine, I will repay. He didn't say we humans need to seek revenge. We need to forgive each other just as God has forgiven us.

 

[forgiven61]

I loved D. James Kennedy.

yes he did

 

[Major]

Thanks MM for that explanation.

As I see it Israel is an earthly nation and as such their rulership was by priests, (and a king when allowed). However the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism that is not of any Worldly System. We are to obey governments and laws when they do not conflict with God`s word to us, however we are not to get `entangled with the affairs of this life,` (2 Tim. 2: 4)

Care to comment on that scripture?

Marilyn, I would be more than happy to speak to the Scripture of 2 Tim. 2:4.

IMHO, The "Context" of that Scripture is concerning a "soldier". ........."No man that warreth".

Imagine a soldier telling his captain on the eve of a battle......
"Sir, I am sorry but I have to leave and go home to take care of some family business, and I have a date with my girlfriend so I will not be here for the battle tomarrow".

Personally, I do not take that Scripture to mean that the Christian should not be involved in society or government.

Ephesians 6:12-13 says........
" For we wrestle not against flesh and - Bible Gateway For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ".

We as Christian are in a battle where conflicts are being won and lost. It is a spiritual battle fought among the hearts of men.
If we do nothing, we will lose!

 

[Major]

Hi MM,

I certainly agree with you, however what you have said does NOT show that storming the gates of hell will change the Political arena. I hear your desire to help people who are under the sway of the evil one over the World System. However praying against the principalities and powers behind the Political arena is not the way. For as you well said `No government of man can be righteous.`

Man`s governments are - democratic, (people`s rule) autocratic, dictatorship, Socialist, Communist, etc etc. All of man and destined for judgment not to be changed or fixed.

Glad you spoke of the Lord`s coming righteous rule, which will be through Israel over the nations as promised in God`s word.

I like also how you desire ministers, (as all of us) to try and wake people up from the spell and lure of the world. That then is an individual battle spoken of by John.

`Do not love the world or the things in the world.....the world (system) is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.` (1 John 2: 15 - 17)

We are told however to pray against Principalities and powers, wickedness.... in relation to every thought and argument against the truth of Christ.

`For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 4 - 6)

Marilyn.

Marilyn, maybe I am not understanding your comments but if we as Christians do not stand against the powers of evil that rule the nation, then what are we doing ????

If you are saying that we should not pray or be active against principalities in the Political arena and that is not the way, then what do you suggest???

 

[Major]

methinks MM has got his wires crossed.

If he ends up on the wrong side well, it was said in the Bible that God will send a strong delusion and people then think they are doing God a favour when they aren't. They will believe a lie about who God is (and no, He isn't in any human govt..because we only have ONE Lord)

As far as enslaving peoples of the world are concerned...it's not just governments that do this. YOU may even do it when you employ someone and pay them less than they are worth, buy luxury goods that are made by slaves, or treat someone like they are a nothing and not seeing their humanity.

That coffee you drink? Made by slaves in South America
Sugar? Made by slaves in the West Indies
Jeans made by slaves in China

How bout waking up to that. You don't go and ASSAULT a government or a people who are doing wrong. You just pray they will be set free. That they will hear the gospel and know the truth and be set free indeed. We have no business going up against systems that we know will just be a big war that will benefit NOBODY. I don't want a world war 3. You want to be a hero and go on another bloodthirsty crusade? Thats just what Satan wants you to do!

We still have to live in the aftermath of the last one!

God said venegeance is mine, I will repay. He didn't say we humans need to seek revenge. We need to forgive each other just as God has forgiven us.

Lanolin...you may not know about the Dred Scott legal decision in 1860.

In that "government court" the “judges” judged that Mr. Scott, a Negro and his wife were not “people.”

Four years later, as a judgment from a higher court in Heaven, America was plunged into a great “Civil War” which cost the lives of nearly 700,000 American citizens. If slavery cost America 700,000 lives, what will be the price of 70 MILLION unborn lives through the governments decision of Freedom of Choice?

“The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” -Psalm 19:9.

Our “judges” once ruled that Negroes were not people. Ironically, this is the same argument that they make today for unborn babies. Unborn babies aren't people, so it is OK to own them and to kill them. Unborn babies, too, have become property of the government.

Personally, I think MM is right on target!

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi MM,

I certainly agree with you, however what you have said does NOT show that storming the gates of hell will change the Political arena. I hear your desire to help people who are under the sway of the evil one over the World System. However praying against the principalities and powers behind the Political arena is not the way. For as you well said `No government of man can be righteous.`

Man`s governments are - democratic, (people`s rule) autocratic, dictatorship, Socialist, Communist, etc etc. All of man and destined for judgment not to be changed or fixed.

Glad you spoke of the Lord`s coming righteous rule, which will be through Israel over the nations as promised in God`s word.

I like also how you desire ministers, (as all of us) to try and wake people up from the spell and lure of the world. That then is an individual battle spoken of by John.

`Do not love the world or the things in the world.....the world (system) is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.` (1 John 2: 15 - 17)

We are told however to pray against Principalities and powers, wickedness.... in relation to every thought and argument against the truth of Christ.

`For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 4 - 6)

Marilyn.

MC, perhaps what I failed to mention also is that we can assault the gates of Hell in relation to the powers and principalities of the air using government as a weapon against the Church...or rather, people within governments abusing the powers of government against the righteous. That involves directed and targeted prayer against the use of demonic puppet strings tied to those in power at various levels of government. The demon powers don't stop at the gates of the White House. They are all throughout that building and the hearts and minds of those people within at this time, and that is our invitation to do battle in that place as well without our every having to set foot therein.

The political arena will always be...political. No doubt. Changing it is indeed a feat, but nowhere do I see that it remains aloof from the influences and power of Christ over it. If things go south because of the corruptions in the political realm, then that is either the will of the Lord or the lack of assault from the Church. But we also have to keep in mind that politics is populated by people, and people are a part of our mission here on this earth. Politicians and Hollywood actors have been brought to Christ before, and it will continue to happen. There's no difference between actors and politicians. They need Christ as do we all.

Good points, though. I appreciate your thoughts and insights.

MM

 

[Marilyn C]

MC, perhaps what I failed to mention also is that we can assault the gates of Hell in relation to the powers and principalities of the air using government as a weapon against the Church...or rather, people within governments abusing the powers of government against the righteous. That involves directed and targeted prayer against the use of demonic puppet strings tied to those in power at various levels of government. The demon powers don't stop at the gates of the White House. They are all throughout that building and the hearts and minds of those people within at this time, and that is our invitation to do battle in that place as well without our every having to set foot therein.

The political arena will always be...political. No doubt. Changing it is indeed a feat, but nowhere do I see that it remains aloof from the influences and power of Christ over it. If things go south because of the corruptions in the political realm, then that is either the will of the Lord or the lack of assault from the Church. But we also have to keep in mind that politics is populated by people, and people are a part of our mission here on this earth. Politicians and Hollywood actors have been brought to Christ before, and it will continue to happen. There's no difference between actors and politicians. They need Christ as do we all.

Good points, though. I appreciate your thoughts and insights.

MM

Hi MM,

I`m glad you brought up the point of `people and the Political arena.` You see that is what we need to distinguish. As I`ve said before we are to pray for people and that it is right to have a `voice` for what is righteous. However that does not mean we are to try and change the Political System, for the Lord is not about changing that but JUDGING it.

This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws.
This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests.

Every nation has its own part in the Whole Gentile World System. It is at present being exposed as to how it rules. And like all the other Gentile rulers of the past God will say -

`You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting...` (Dan. 5: 27)

However before that judgment we as believers can be a voice to the individual leaders -

`Therefore O King, let my counsel be acceptable to you: break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor...` (Dan. 4: 27)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, maybe I am not understanding your comments but if we as Christians do not stand against the powers of evil that rule the nation, then what are we doing ????

If you are saying that we should not pray or be active against principalities in the Political arena and that is not the way, then what do you suggest???

Hi Major,

If you read what I just said to MM, then that should answer your question.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi MM,

I`m glad you brought up the point of `people and the Political arena.` You see that is what we need to distinguish. As I`ve said before we are to pray for people and that it is right to have a `voice` for what is righteous. However that does not mean we are to try and change the Political System, for the Lord is not about changing that but JUDGING it.

This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws.
This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests.

Every nation has its own part in the Whole Gentile World System. It is at present being exposed as to how it rules. And like all the other Gentile rulers of the past God will say -

`You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting...` (Dan. 5: 27)

However before that judgment we as believers can be a voice to the individual leaders -

`Therefore O King, let my counsel be acceptable to you: break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor...` (Dan. 4: 27)

Marilyn.

Interesting indeed, MC. Tell me, would you also agree that governments, all governments, were/are ordained by God?

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

The term "ordained" in this verse, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon: "to place in a certain order (Xenophon, mem. 3, 1, 7 (9)), to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint": τινα, passive, αἱ ἐξουσία ὑπό Θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσιν (A. V. ordained), Romans 13:1

Now, far too often I've seen people, and even scholars who should know better, force meaning into that verse what isn't there, but that happen to make the verse mesh with their own ideals and sway for what the Lord did/does.

I fully agree with you that political systems are indeed subject to influences of evil, but also of good, and therefore the people within them judged, but I don't see them as being so far removed from God and His sovereignty that we can cast them all aside as being outside the scope of our warfare for godly influences.

Perhaps this can be a good topic for sermons, where ministers can draw to the people's attention that every political system, whether it be an empire, a kingdom (monarchy), a nation (dictatorship, democracy, republic, et al), they ALL have that one common thread of origin that placed each one in its order and arrangement, and every one of them serve a purpose in the overall plan the Lord who ordained each one before the foundations of this world. The wickedness behind how the powers and the people within each one, and how those people wielded them in their hands of control, each of those men and women will be judged accordingly by the Perfect Judge, as we all know.

So, perhaps, you could share your thoughts on how you define a "political" system in that it should remain beyond the efforts of our influences. Many a sermon has been preached on how we should refrain from influencing those secular entities, but I don't see them as being so secular in their origins and their day to day operations, given that each one is a God-ordained reality throughout history, from start to finish.

MM