Did Jesus Die For Everyone...?

Yeah, but no one here is saying that.

When people say that "Jesus died for everyone," they mean that Jesus offers atonement to everyone, and He's not a tyrant that forces them to chose it against their will. The father didn't drag the prodigal son home against his will, he waited for his son to return on his own, and the offer to come home was always on the table.

I concur ..
there is a difference in saying ..
Jesus died for everyone's sins ..
and ..
Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins ..

the prior advocates trying to sneak in another way (as the parable goes)
personally I see way too many whom seem to think they are in a one way contract with God .. and the burden is entirely on him ..
or salvation is some kind of free-be entitlement ..
I think it no coincidence Jesus said ..
Luk 9:23
And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

so the question begs to be asked ..
what is this cross I must take up daily to follow you ???
many think they are following Him and do not deny self ..
 
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Adam disobeyed God .. that is sin .. the penalty for sin is death .. that was the curse God placed on all mankind through Adam .. spiritual death, which means separation from God .. God planned to redeem man all along .. that is WHY he set Adam up ..
how did He do that ??? .. By telling Adam if you eat from the tree of Life you will die .. which is only 1/2 the data .. and satan exploited that saying you wont die (meaning physically) which Adam wouldn't .. because God meant spiritual death .. hence Jesus came to pay the price of our sin because being without blame, only He could ..
salvation is not a "free gift" per-say ..
that fact that he offers salvation is a "free gift" ..
to gain salvation we must "believe in God and the sacrifice made by Jesus who is God's son to redeem us" .. "try our best" to obey God .. and when we fail, repent sincerely .. this IS loving God with our ALL (Jesus said that is what is needed to gain salvation) and loving neighbor as self .. the whole idea behind His plan for man's failure and redemption, was so God could prove to us 1st the Greatness of His love for us .. so we in-turn would love Him back also with a Great love .. His covenant/pact with us, is a covenant/pact of Love ..

God Bless you ..

BTW: I am not a sinner .. I repent if I sin, and trust Jesus is righteous and forgives them when I do .. He IS the lamb that TAKES AWAY our sins, thus He makes me without sin through Him ..

nor is anyone alive on earth saved yet .. about 200 scriptures verses refute it ..

God knows that what I am about to say is not easy for me to say. And God be the judge of my heart and motivation regarding these things I say. You say some good things, but not all is well.

"Adam if you eat from the tree of Life you will die..." That is grave error. For God said "And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:9. So where does the Tree of Life come in? "The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:16-17. The Tree of Life is Christ! "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life." John 14:6. We are to eat of that tree! "Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." John 6:53. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the wisdom of man. Not very wholesome stuff. :)

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"Jhn 12:40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

there, I exposed the eisegesis that Jesus died for everyone .."

Both verses you use are referring to Israel - not the issue of the world and the saved on a broad scale.

"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." John 12:37-40. Who did Jesus come to first and do His many miracles among? The Jews! The blinding of eyes and the hardening of hearts here refers to the Jews. You can not expand that meaning to the whole of the unsaved world because God's Word here does not do that in the first place.

Romans 11:7 has the very word "Israel" in it. The first few verses of Romans 11 make it clear that this chapter is about Israel the nation. " I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened" Romans 11:1-7. You can not expand this to include the elect from the Gentiles. You can not expand this into the scope of this discussion.

And if one must take verses out of context to the prove his point, then what he says is not of God.
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Christ is the Word. John 1:1. All Scripture is God breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16. To understand the whole Word we must look at the whole Word - not just select verses and individual words that get squabbled over. Does not that kind of behavior lead to confusion? And confusion is not from from God. 1 Corinthians 14:33.
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"I see someone dislikes God's word .. tisk tisknor did they even try and answer an honest question ..and not one iota of opinion was on that post ..very UNCHRISTIAN whoever you are .." This is not building up the Body. This is tearing it down. If one is wise he will know that "But the wisdom from above is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. It is full of mercy and good deeds. It shows no favoritism and is always sincere." James 3:17.

And even if one has much knowledge - and they share it quite often - that can mean nothing. "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2.
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This is not a personal attack. God knows that is not the desire of my heart. I am saying what I know needs to be said. I hope you will consider it.
 
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the prior advocates trying to sneak in another way (as the parable goes)

One possible interpretation (a misinterpretation) of "Jesus died for everyone's sins" advocates "trying to sneak in another way," but that is not what anyone here, as far as I can tell, actually means when they say it (i.e., read it in the way you also read 1 John 2:2), and it's certainly not what I've seen anyone here advocating. We do need to be careful about the way we word things, true, but if you think a particular wording is dangerous because of how it could be misinterpreted, might I suggest that a better approach to confronting that might be to ask, "I understand what you mean when you say that, but have you considered how it might be misinterpreted? Let me suggest this way of phrasing the same thing..." Or, if you're not totally sure about what exactly they are advocating, perhaps asking clarifying questions may be prudent before declaring that they are wrong (why shoot first and ask questions later?)

It really seems to me, when you say that "Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins," that no one here is actually debating different doctrines, but what is the best wording for the same doctrine. If that's the case, this is such a trivial distinction that it's barely worth talking about. Instead, let's all just talk about how we can support one another in getting out there, loving all equally, and preaching the gospel of salvation to all.
 
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Jesus' sacrifice was for all mankind for all time and eternity. It was final and complete - truly an overpayment for all mankind's sins. What He did on the cross was like a class-action lawsuit settlement - anyone who was involved with the transaction now has a payment waiting to be claimed by them. All mankind has had their sins forgiven, Jesus is waiting for them to claim it, as we all have.
 
God knows that what I am about to say is not easy for me to say. And God be the judge of my heart and motivation regarding these things I say. You say some good things, but not all is well.

"Adam if you eat from the tree of Life you will die..." That is grave error.

Not a grave error .. just a typo .. thank you for correcting it ..

You can not expand that meaning to the whole of the unsaved world because God's Word here does not do that in the first place.

nonetheless it was true .. he hardened their hearts SO they would not be converted and healed .. as was with Judas true .. as is for sins that He will judge those without compassion with ..


And if one must take verses out of context to the prove his point, then what he says is not of God.

I did NOT take it out of context .. that is a false assumption .. the Jews ARE part of the world ..

" This is not building up the Body. This is tearing it down.

that is another false assumption .. Jesus and the apostles said to rebuke/admonish .. and sometimes you must do so so you can build on rocks when they begin to build on sand .. and you do so out of love .. so you falsely misjudged me .. do not judge by appearance .. judge with righteous judgement .. that means ask me my motives ..,

And even if one has much knowledge - and they share it quite often - that can mean nothing. "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2.

indeed .. I post that about once a week ..


This is not a personal attack. God knows that is not the desire of my heart. I am saying what I know needs to be said. I hope you will consider it.

no you said what you thought needed to be said .. but you erred by judging by appearance ..
 
so the question begs to be asked ..
what is this cross I must take up daily to follow you ???
many think they are following Him and do not deny self ..

Sure, it is important to consider what the Bible teaches about obedience. But a conversation about the choice to obey or disobey is not a conversation about predestination, it's still a conversation about choice.

For example, when you say "and do not deny self," I assume you do not mean "many think they are following Him [but are predestined to be unable to chose to] deny self."
 
Sure, it is important to consider what the Bible teaches about obedience. But a conversation about the choice to obey or disobey is not a conversation about predestination, it's still a conversation about choice.

For example, when you say "and do not deny self," I assume you do not mean "many think they are following Him [but are predestined to be unable to chose to] deny self."

no .. I do not believe in predestination per-say ..
I believe God knows ahead of time .. thus it only looks like predestination ..
hence He can call just the ones He knows will answer ..


predestination would negate free-will
and without free-will, love is NOTHING ..
 
the Good news was for all .. that doesn't mean Jesus' sacrifice is applied to all ..

As far as I can see, Rodain described Jesus' sacrifice as "a payment waiting to be claimed," and you said "Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins .."

Just a humble suggestion: Maybe ask Rodain how he believes this payment can "be claimed" before you're ready to disagree. Maybe it's the same way you believe how it can "be applied." I'm not declaring that it is the same, I'm suggesting, it doesn't hurt to ask, so we don't end up shooting first and asking questions later.
 
no .. I do not believe in predestination per-say ..
I believe God knows ahead of time .. thus it only looks like predestination ..
hence He can call just the ones He knows will answer ..


predestination would negate free-will
and without free-will, love is NOTHING ..

Okay, but no one's saying anything different from that, as far as I can tell... and also, as far as I can tell, no one is teaching that "Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins" = "all are saved." So what the problem?
 
As far as I can see, Rodain described Jesus' sacrifice as "a payment waiting to be claimed," and you said "Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins .."

Just a humble suggestion: Maybe ask Rodain how he believes this payment can "be claimed" before you're ready to disagree. Maybe it's the same way you believe how it can "be applied." I'm not declaring that it is the same, I'm suggesting, it doesn't hurt to ask, so we don't end up shooting first and asking questions later.

I can read .. he said ..
All mankind has had their sins forgiven,

all mankind hasn't .. he was correct until he contradicted himself ..
G2G .. God Bless you ..
 
I can read .. he said ..
All mankind has had their sins forgiven

True enough. But maybe the best response is "what do you mean when you say that?" Not "you are wrong." You may find that it's a question of the best wording for the same doctrine, not different doctrines. Doesn't hurt to ask.
 

Not if doing "our best" is to pay a debt. That's just dead works. But we should cease to sin out of Love for what Jesus did.
 
Not if doing "our best" is to pay a debt. That's just dead works. But we should cease to sin out of Love for what Jesus did.

Absolutely (although, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we can pay our own debt: as ixoye put it, "Jesus paid the debt that can be applied to anyone's sins")

2 Cor 5:14-15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So we as Christians say "Christ's love compels us," we so we live our lives demonstrating love.
Another teaching may say "the fear of condemnation compels us," and what can the implication of that be, except to live out one's life demonstrating fear?
 
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the original question was did Jesus go thru all that pain and suffering and die on the cross for Judas and for Hitler also... i used these two as a way to show there is a difference between Judas' sin and Hitler's... the technicality is that Judas betrayed God, i say God because Jesus is God, he betrayed divinity and did not nor he may not have had the choice of repentance. Hitler could have repented, but his actions shows he didn't... i may be wrong. Hence, our Lord knew of Judas, He also knew His sacrifice would not be for Judas or those like him.

Judas was the 'son of perdition', he was prophesied to be the one that would betray our Lord and make prophecy to be fulfilled. Could Judas repent for what he did...? By throwing the money he received for his betrayal back at the Pharisees was that a form or repentance ... also the question is why did he betray Jesus...? Was it out of hate, or jealousy, greed, just to fulfill prophecy, or the fact that maybe he knew that Christ knew of his heart and his thievery. Jesus knew all along this was the man that would betray Him yet he kept him close to Him, chose him as an apostle, and never showed any hint of His knowledge to Judas or anyone else.
 
Not if doing "our best" is to pay a debt. That's just dead works. But we should cease to sin out of Love for what Jesus did.

Romans3:21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

No one is perfect, and yes ''we do our best'' everyday to always be on the path that Christ showed us, we fail, we get back up, we keep going, always doing our best to be one with Him.
 
So we as Christians say "Christ's love compels us," we so we live our lives demonstrating love.
Another teaching may say "the fear of condemnation compels us," and what can the implication of that be, except to live out one's life demonstrating fear?

exactly .. perfect love casts out fear ..
can you obtain this .. NO .. no one can ..

we are taught by the Father, Son and HS to fear God ..

this is why when asked of Jesus, "what does it take to be saved" ..
the answer Jesus signed off on is "Love God with your ALL, and neighbor as self" ..

so "the best you can" IS your all ..
and it is NOT perfect .. but it is "your ALL" (no reservations) ..

so Abdicate is correct that we should obey "because we love" (not out of fear) ..
BUT "to obey out of fear" before your love is "your ALL" (and you learn to not put your will over God's) has it's merits over not obeying sometimes, or not at all (and why God said to) .. Ideally, fear is never a factor, realistically, show me someone with perfect love .. yes Love with your ALL .. and seek perfection of that love ..

God Bless all ..
 
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if you had perfect love .. you indeed could claim salvation on earth ..
but salvation is a hope .. while we are here .. and our Judge will judge all on IF they loved God with their ALL, and neighbor as self .. Read Matthew chapter 25 & 7 ..

Mat 24:13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Mar 13:13“You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Col 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1Th 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

Hbr 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

Hbr 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
 
exactly .. perfect love casts out fear ..
can you obtain this .. NO .. no one can ..

we are taught by the Father, Son and HS to fear God ..

this is why when asked of Jesus, "what does it take to be saved" ..
the answer Jesus signed off on is "Love God with your ALL, and neighbor as self" ..

so "the best you can" IS your all ..
and it is NOT perfect .. but it is "your ALL" (no reservations) ..

so Abdicate is correct that we should obey "because we love" (not out of fear) ..
BUT "to obey out of fear" before your love is "your ALL" (and you learn to not put your will over God's) has it's merits over not obeying sometimes, or not at all (and why God said to) .. Ideally, fear is never a factor, realistically, show me someone with perfect love .. yes Love with your ALL .. and seek perfection of that love ..

God Bless all ..


Mark 14:38
Keep awake and pray that you may not come into the time of trial; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”


Out of fear we obey and out of love we follow willingly the path of our Lord, but just like we do with our parents we both fear and love and obey them, so it is with us with God...

Question: When you think of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit... how is your mind and heart with each when you think of them, is there a different reverence and love and fear that you may have for one but not necessarily for the other. Do you think of all Three as God or as different... i know in my heart that God is all Three of Them ...

People fear God the Father, but most of the time we see whether in pictures or while talking with others that Jesus is regarded as a 'buddy' , spoken to with less reverence, and i am not always sure that most Christians will understand that the Holy Spirit is also God...
 
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