Doctrinal Authority

[GBzone]

Going back to Jesus's Baptism, we find the heavens open and a voice saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"
This was just prier to Jesus being led into the desert to be tempted. As we all know when the Word of God is sown, Satan comes to steal that Word that was sown. Jesus did not need to turn rocks into bread to proof who he was as he already had the Word of God come from the mouth of his Father at his baptism telling him he was his Son.

"man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth form the mouth of God"

Jesus's desire from hunger was only a way for Satan to try to "beguile, entice" Jesus to sin, knowing he had to be very weak having not eaten in 40 days.

"Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust (desire) and in enticed..."

Anytime we satisfy the flesh over the spiritual we loose.

It is also worth noting that all those temptations in the wilderness began with "if thou be the Son of God"
A subtle temptation also to justify or prove himself .
and when the last Adam had conquered in a wilderness in contrast to the Adam of earth who failed in a paradise . It is written the devil" left him for a SEASON"
He often came back to tempt him in the mouths of men .
and at the end while in his greatest weakness of all dying on a cross .It was men who were saying "if thou be the Son of God ....."

in Christ
gerald

 

[Leemg]

I'm glad! And I strongly suspect that people are saying a pretty similar thing, if not the same thing, just with different terms.

Sorry but that is not so. We are not speaking the same thing - irregardless of terms.

 

[Major]

Paul's nature did change. At one point he even said he was 'very Christ'. He also said it is no longer I but Christ who lives. Christ does not live in His temple with a sin nature which brings captivity. He died to set us free from son. There is no such thing as an old nature in a new creature/true believer. At the new birth or at the point of salvation, we become a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come (2 Cor. 5:17). He or she becomes TOTALLY NEW.

The new nature (WE ARE PARTAKERS OF GOD'S DIVINE NATURE) replaces the old nature/sin nature. It is Christ's Nature. The New Creature is a totally transformed NEW MAN.

The dual nature doctrine is a false doctrine.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

1 Tim. 1:15-16..............
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

I believe that if you will consult Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible you will discover that in “Romans 6, Paul used the present tense verb as he created the same truth by using the present tense in Romans 7:14-24. Both passages compliment the rest of Scripture because of Paul'’s present tense use of the verbs. He makes it clear that it was applicable to him at the time he wrote it. Now I realize that you will not like that but there is no way to change the Greek grammatical wording there. It is what it is my friend.

Paul used the present tense when calling himself a sinner. Surely that means that all the rest of us are sinners as well.

Now we can debate this back and forth as long as you want to but the truth is Christians are both sinners and saints.

It is a clear biblical truth that all are born in sin and all have a sin nature. Scripture says that God created humankind originally good and without a sin nature:

Gen. 1:26-27.............
"Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.’ . . . God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them”.

But then comes Genesis 3 and the fall of Adam and Eve, and with that fall sin entered into the two previously sinless creatures. And when they had children, their sin nature was passed along to their offspring. Thus, every human being is a sinner.

Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”; we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sinners-saints.html#ixzz3QyRE8dzN

Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15–16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

 

[Major]

Temptation comes when our soul looks out into the world and begins to desire that which is forbidden. When the eye is not single. Temptation does not come from a sin nature or the flesh. We are not under any captivity to the power of sin. A son of God sins by choice when the soul creates its own lust and defile the temple.

You said............"Temptation comes when our soul looks out into the world and begins to desire that which is forbidden."

With that in mind, please post a Scripture that confirms it and explain how and why Satan was able then to temp the Lord Jesus Christ.

With what you are saying, Jesus was looking into the world and wanted what was forbidden. REALLY?????

 

[Major]

Of course we submit to the Spirit in us. When we do, then we are walking in the Spirit.
The lust does not come from the body. It is created by the soul. The body of sin was destroyed at salvation.
No vocab problem. This is part of the Mystery of Christ and the raising up/quickening of the New Man. One needs to understand the triune nature of God and His New Man and what happens to the Adamic body (flesh), soul and spirit at the time of salvation in order to create a spiritual man and a true Son. (1 Corinthians 15)

My sister, you said.............. " The body of sin was destroyed at salvation." REALLY????

What Bible verse can you post for us that confirms that?

And while you are at it........will you also post a Scripture that confirms your comment of..."The lust does not come from the body".

Are you aware that YOU are contradicting the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 15:19 where He says........
"for out of the HEART of man come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

 

[Major]

It is the soul that is responsible for the things done in the body. Whatever the soul desires, the body is used to fulfill it. The soul cannot live on earth without a body. Man is body, soul and spirit. These three are one. When the soul departs the body it goes into eternity; whether that be heaven or hell. The body that gave it life goes back to the dust from whence it came. Man's soul is expressed in this world through a body. It was the soul that was held in captivity by the spirit of bondage before salvation. It is also the soul that cries out to God for deliverance.

Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake.

No my dear......Psalms 6:4 does not speak to your claim at all. Psalms 6 is David's appeal to the God of mercy to asend to the judgment seat. He does it in true piety knowing that the judgment of God is ordained and commanded.

We can not and should never just pick out a Scripture because we like what it says and then work to make it say what we want it to say.

 

[CCW95A]

It is also worth noting that all those temptations in the wilderness began with "if thou be the Son of God"
A subtle temptation also to justify or prove himself .
and when the last Adam had conquered in a wilderness in contrast to the Adam of earth who failed in a paradise . It is written the devil" left him for a SEASON"
He often came back to tempt him in the mouths of men .
and at the end while in his greatest weakness of all dying on a cross .It was men who were saying "if thou be the Son of God ....."

in Christ
gerald

If Satan could just get Jesus to doubt that he wasn't the Son of God, even for just a moment, he would have caused Jesus to sin. There for, what ever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Abdicate]

No, scripture calls the body of sin the "Old Man" or what we call 'sin nature'.

Romans 6:6 (KJV)
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 (KJV)
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 (KJV)
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

 

[Leemg]

No my dear......Psalms 6:4 does not speak to your claim at all. Psalms 6 is David's appeal to the God of mercy to asend to the judgment seat. He does it in true piety knowing that the judgment of God is ordained and commanded.

We can not and should never just pick out a Scripture because we like what it says and then work to make it say what we want it to say.

There are many supporting scriptures that as you say, "speak to my claim", but if your heart is not open to hearing then you will continue to say that about every supporting scripture I or anyone else would give. If you cannot see in these scriptures the "soul" speaking and crying out for deliverance from captivity, then I can't help you.

Psalm 6:4
Return, O LORD, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness.King James Bible
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.Holman Christian Standard Bible
Turn, LORD! Rescue me; save me because of Your faithful love. International Standard Version
Aramaic Bible in Plain English Return, Lord Jehovah, and deliver my soul, and save me because of your kindness
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Come back, O LORD. Rescue me. Save me because of your mercy!
Jubilee Bible 2000
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
King James 2000 Bible
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for your mercies' sake.
American King James Version
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for your mercies' sake.

 

[Leemg]

Romans 6:6 (KJV)
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 (KJV)
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 (KJV)
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Amen. These and many more scriptures support the fact that the old man/body of sin was crucified to the cross with Christ and is dead for a true son of God, born again of Christ's Spirit. Sin has NO POWER in the flesh, soul or spirit of a true son of God. We were reborn complete in Christ - body, soul and spirit. We can now walk according to the dictates of the NEW MAN. We have been freed from unrighteousness! Praise God!

 

[Leemg]

Are you aware that YOU are contradicting the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 15:19 where He says........
"for out of the HEART of man come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

Are you not aware that Jesus was speaking of the natural, Adamic Man (old man) in Matt.15:19 and not the New Man who has the heart and mind of Christ? It is important to understand what dispensation the event, speaker etc. is refering to. Understanding context is important brother. Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again.

After salvation we do not have that heart of sin:

Ezekiel 36
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Do you really believe that the HEART and MIND OF CHRIST is filled evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander? I hope not!

 

[Leemg]

You said............"Temptation comes when our soul looks out into the world and begins to desire that which is forbidden."

With that in mind, please post a Scripture that confirms it and explain how and why Satan was able then to temp the Lord Jesus Christ.

With what you are saying, Jesus was looking into the world and wanted what was forbidden. REALLY?????

I said or meant that when our soul begins to desire that which is forbidden.......
Jesus never desired anything the world had to offer and He expects us to walk in that same mind. Jesus was tempted as we are. He is our example in all things. Temptation is a fact of life. The Father allows it for our proving.

 

[Leemg]

Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”; we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sinners-saints.html#ixzz3QyRE8dzN

Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15–16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

Amen now your talking! All men have sinned. We were all born in sin and shapened in iniquity and had a sin nature from the beginning because of Adam. But at salvation (which is the rebirth or born again experience) we become SAINTS - no longer sinners. We become new creatures with a New Nature. Our sin nature destroyed! Praise God!

 

[Roads]

Sorry but that is not so. We are not speaking the same thing - irregardless of terms.

Well you've lost me then, mate! I'm not sure at all what you mean. All I can piece together from what you've written that instead of temptations coming from "our flesh," now temptations just come from "our soul" instead... effectively, our soul has a dual nature that sometimes desires evil and sometimes desires good.

So it sounds to me like you're saying:

- Before, when we had a "sin nature," we sometimes desired good and sometimes desired evil (because the Bible teaches everyone has been given a conscience... right?). When we were tempted, that temptation came from our nature.
- Now that the "sin nature" is dead, we still sometimes desire good and sometimes desire evil. When we are tempted, that temptation now comes from our soul (even if they're the same temptations that used to come from our "nature").

I hope you can at least understand that it's hard for us to see the distinction.

It seems to me (and this is just a suggestion, not an accusation), you've tried to work out a logical system that tries to explain how we can still be tempted even though our old nature/desires/affections have been crucified with Christ, which actually is a pretty reasonable question. But in the process, you've created a system where now it's just soul that effectively has a dual nature, plaguing us with the same old temptations. Might I also suggest: there is a much simpler explanation.

 

[Leemg]

Well you've lost me then, mate! I'm not sure at all what you mean. All I can piece together from what you've written that instead of temptations coming from "our flesh," now temptations just come from "our soul" instead... effectively, our soul has a dual nature that sometimes desires evil and sometimes desires good.

So it sounds to me like you're saying:

- Before, when we had a "sin nature," we sometimes desired good and sometimes desired evil (because the Bible teaches everyone has been given a conscience... right?). When we were tempted, that temptation came from our nature.
- Now that the "sin nature" is dead, we still sometimes desire good and sometimes desire evil. When we are tempted, that temptation now comes from our soul (even if they're the same temptations that used to come from our "nature").

I hope you can at least understand that it's hard for us to see the distinction.

It seems to me (and this is just a suggestion, not an accusation), you've tried to work out a logical system that tries to explain how we can still be tempted even though our old nature/desires/affections have been crucified with Christ, which actually is a pretty reasonable question. But in the process, you've created a system where now it's just soul that effectively has a dual nature, plaguing us with the same old temptations. Might I also suggest: there is a much simpler explanation.

Well mate you've totally confused me as I do not understand what you are saying. It certainly is not what I have been saying, Just go back and read all the scriptures I have posted and let the Word speak for itself. And, take time to study the process of salvation and the making of the New Man, according to scripture. God bless.

 

[Roads]

Well mate you've totally confused me as I do not understand what you are saying. It certainly is not what I have been saying, Just go back and read all the scriptures I have posted and let the Word speak for itself. And, take time to study the process of salvation and the making of the New Man, according to scripture. God bless.

Try explaining it in the simplest way possible. I'm a pretty simple person, you might need to dumb it down for me.

 

[Roads]

And, take time to study the process of salvation and the making of the New Man, according to scripture.

Just a question for clarification, is my salvation dependent on my ability to "study the process of salvation," or is Christ able to save me regardless of what I think or don't think about the "process?"

 

[Leemg]

Just a question for clarification, is my salvation dependent on my ability to "study the process of salvation," or is Christ able to save me regardless of what I think or don't think about the "process?"

Whatever terms or concepts that you believe are foreign to you or that what I have spoken is a what you call a "logical system of salvation" just tells me you do not understand. But you can if you continue in the Word "with a pure heart" and study to make yourself approved. There is nothing I have printed or said that is not in the Word of God. I have not explained foreign words nor anything outside the boundaries of the faith. It "MAY" look strange to some because it is not a philosophy or doctrine of man of which I have spoken. Unfortunately , much of the church has been brainwashed with false teachings and milk. Very little meat and very little truth is preached. I feel as Paul felt when he implied that they needed to understand the knowledge he had received concerning the mystery of Christ. Not only did the Spirit reveal it His church, but we were also made the mystery by the same Spirit. This is what you need to ask the Lord for is an understanding of the revelation. It is important as bible students that we actually study the Bible and not commentaries or religious tradition or the stuff you hear on the TV from the celeb teachers. God bless you.

 

[Major]

Amen now your talking! All men have sinned. We were all born in sin and shapened in iniquity and had a sin nature from the beginning because of Adam. But at salvation (which is the rebirth or born again experience) we become SAINTS - no longer sinners. We become new creatures with a New Nature. Our sin nature destroyed! Praise God!

Not so my sister. You have missed the whole thing. We are saints, saved by the grace of God and forgiven of our sins and the death penalty is removed HOWEVER
our sin nature is NOT destroyed!!!!

We as Christians are SAVED SINNERS but sinners none the less. Our new nature is to hate sin and do good but just as Paul said in Romans 7.......
"I do not know how to do that".

John says in 1 John 1:8 and 10.......
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us . . . if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

So John goes so far as to tell Christians that it is a sin to say you are sinless.

 

[Major]

Try explaining it in the simplest way possible. I'm a pretty simple person, you might need to dumb it down for me.

Then we are twins my brother!