i see where you think i was referring to you from your highlights, very sorry about that, actually i was referring to those that will read the posts we all make, not necessarily posting anything but just reading what we post, and in silence of their computer read and learn what true people of God post... it was not meant for you but i was trying to bring out that even though there are those in this forum that will never understand, and i meant in this those others who have also posted not just words but ugly pictures also, thinking they are winning the discussion when in fact it allows us to post answers that others learn from and see the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith. If it was meant for you i would be saying 'you' and not 'others' ...
First Church?
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
i see where you think i was referring to you from your highlights, very sorry about that, actually i was referring to those that will read the posts we all make, not necessarily posting anything but just reading what we post, and in silence of their computer read and learn what true people of God post... it was not meant for you but i was trying to bring out that even though there are those in this forum that will never understand, and i meant in this those others who have also posted not just words but ugly pictures also, thinking they are winning the discussion when in fact it allows us to post answers that others learn from and see the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith. If it was meant for you i would be saying 'you' and not 'others' ...
MichaelH
Inactive
Your right Rosa, I won't understand Muslims, Mormons, and any other reliegion who worships things not ever mentioned by God in His Word.
How many was that you anointed with Oil and were healed? I speak in tongues and have laid hands on the sick which they have been healed. I find it hard to believe that believing in doctrines of devils God uses you in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit and with your disregard for the Word have been used by the Lord to be healed.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It does not come discounting Gods word.
You also say some don't understand? There is no amount of explanation that can be given when a Catholic Priest is carrying a severed Human head on a platter or a Catholic Church who has used the bones of the dead to cover their walls.
There is no explanations why pray to Mary or even do the some Rosary when I showed you plainly in God's Word that Jesus said we Pray to the father in His name. That was instruction from the King of Kings you ignore and spit in the face of.
So your right...................... Us ignorant folk would never understand that total disregard of Scripture when us Ignorant folks love the Lord and value the Word of God.
Others may answer with softness, I want you to snap out of fantasy land and believe what is true. Your no different than a Muslim or any other religion who does not Value the Word of God.
I don't like fancy words, I call it for what it is, and not calling it for what it is means I also am full of deception.
I have showed you the scriptures, you have just rambled on. That tells me anymore talk with you is wasted until God gets a hold of you and opens your eyes.
RJ, the spirit of Anti-Christ is that which opposes Christ or seeks to replace Christ in the hearts and minds of the masses. Wherever you see this opposition or attempt it is of this spirit. The person of the Anti-Christ is quite another thing. He is the embodiment and physical reality of this spirit. A political personage completely empowered, controlled, or even possessed of this spirit. He will be real (or perhaps now is but not yet revealed) and he will persecute the church just before Christ's parousia, when he is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. According to Jesus and Paul, the revealing of him will precede Christs Second Advent. So of course all atheism and materialism as well as religions like Islam (who say there is not Son) are of the spirit of anti-Christ, they oppose Him and wish to replace Him in the hearts and minds of the people who need redemption...he works hard and keeps far too many out of the Kingdom. You will be hated for His name sake if you are one of His (should you live to the time of his revealing).
Just got back from church, well I posted a post about an obelisk and mentioned a name and I see know one responded to that thread. I still do not see the Mary being prayed too, the verse in Colossians is very specific, I know the The Word of God says that Mary is blessed among all woman, but to pray to someone other then Jesus never read that verse in my Bible.
Michael, thank you for making sure to let us know about your holyness... i am sure those you healed were fortunate you were around and may God bless you for all the good you do. Guess all should be grateful to have you tell us what the true Word is, how if anyone does not think like you they 'spit in the King of Kings face' from a guy, you, who called the Blessed Mother of God as 'Jesus momma'... etc...etc...etc...
1Timothy2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
If the Saints on earth can pray for others i am sure that Saints in heaven can pray for us...
Matthew 18:10“Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven.
Revelation 22 …8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."
Angels do interced for us to the Lord God, and they are not divinity but like us, fellow servants...
Unless you forgot, Michael, in England the head of the church is the King of England...
i ramble on, you have not given one link to prove the pictures, but i found the links... do you understand the word 'ossuary'...?
Definition of OSSUARY
: a depository for the bones of the dead
Also i never said that everything some people do i agree with or defend it ... i do think that your insistence and what can be construed as extreme dislike for the Catholic church is you telling us that your way and only your denomination has the true Word of God. You want to believe in 'sola scriptura' that is your problem, believe all you want, i thirst for and look for the richness of and beauty in reading also about those others who were with and are witnesses of the Apostles and write about them like Clement, and Sosthenes, Silas, Silvanus, and many others, here is a very nice link that gives all the names: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0524.htm , and here is another incredibly and really good link as to the writings of the disciples of the Apostles: http://orthodoxyinfo.org/aposfath.htm
Maybe we should concentrate more on the NT and remember that both Moses who died and was taken into heaven, and Elijah were with Jesus during the transfiguration talking to Him about the coming events for our Lord... if it is okay for our Lord Jesus to speak to the dead, and all He did was an example to us all, why is not okay for us to pray to the Saints in heaven to intercede for us to our Lord, are we not saints also...? Does it not also say in the NT that the Apostles, who are alive in heaven, will be judging ...? Hence, since it is okay to pray for intercessions to the Saints it more than okay to pray to Mary for intercession to our Lord and God Jesus the Christ.
"And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8)."
MichaelH
Inactive
Rosa, lets not forget you came into this thread and pounced on me first. I had never addressed your beliefs until that point. If you pounce on me I am not a person you want to debate scripture with and you better be able to back everything with scripture or I will call you on it and show everyone else your basing your faith on nothing or What God said.
That is the route you choose to get my attention first.
We are to pray for all in authority that we may live a peaceable life. When we die, we are with the Lord and have no more place on the earth and under the sun. Our time and influence on this planet has been finished. That scripture was already mentioned.
We don't take human reasoning and say that since we prayed down here, we have to pray in heaven or field someone else's prayers for them. There is zero scripture to support that and the first church in Acts never practiced that.
Jesus gave instruction about prayer and we have instruction in the Word about prayer.
We ask the Father God in Jesus name, as he gave his name to men by which every knee shall bow. We go directly to the Father, nobody else. That was our instruction. In that i don't believe Jesus meant not to ask him either as he was going away, He is the Head of the Church and would be giving direction through the Holy Spirit.
no other saint or Mary was included in any scripture anywhere concerning who to ask for help or ask for intercessions.
Angels:
Angels are ministering spirits which means in the Greek to serve us. They protect, they carry a message at times, we never speak or talk to any angel though unless one addresses us with a message from the Lord. Not all Angels appear for what they really are and a dangerous area if your not worded up enough to discern God from Satan's angels. The Mormon Religion was created by one such demonic spirit showing up as an Angel of light. Any angel that speaks, must back it by the Word and we should demand they do so.
I don't have any dislike for any denomination. I will call out things not backed by scripture though. Unfortunately for those that come here with other religious ideas not backed by scripture is proof of anything. Jeff the Admin has already determined the Scripture and Word of God is the final authority here. I certainly would not expect a Catholic site to accept my stance on scripture as their site would have already laid the ground work for what was true. Even if true or not, it does not matter as Scripture here is what is considered true.
As a believer, Scripture should be first place, the word of God given by the Holy Spirit. I am not caught up in feelings or beauty as that is not faith. Faith believes despite how we feel. I am only moved by the Word and what the Word says.
The Word is also a anchor. Everything I say, I can back with scripture. If I have scripture I have something God actually said and it can't be proven wrong. If man made it up, then it most likely is wrong or off concerning the things of God.
If I misunderstand the scripture then I can be corrected by someone with Scripture. Once I see my error I make the correction.
Hence I don't understand prayer to Mary, Holy Water or a severed head on a plate. I don't get it and there is no scripture to correct my thinking on these things. We are safe if we focus on what God said only in His word.
If your really interested in healing people, it takes more than anointing them with Oil for in James it says the prayer of Faith shall save the sick. Faith only comes from hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17) If we are not on the word then no faith and no healing.
When I lay hands on the sick, I expect results. The person also must receive and healing does not come without acting.
go through all the healing accounts in the Word and see each thing that took place. From the women with the issue of blood saying, "If I just touch the Hem of his Garment, I shall be healed" to Paul preaching the Gospel in Lystra (Acts 14:9) and a man hearing got faith for his healing and Paul saying rise and Walk.
If your interested, find out how it Works............ saying Hi to Mary over and over trying to get her attention which is what Hail means is not going to do a blessed thing and helps nobody.
I don't hate people, and I don't hate The Catholic church. If I am called out though then they best have something called scripture.
Blessings.
To begin, praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Also, Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Romans 15:30-32, Ephesians 6:18-20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1). He assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Even more remarkably, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matthew 5:44).
I think people often associate prayer as an automatic worship. But it's not. Granted, when we pray to God, worship should be a foreground element to our prayer, but a prayer to Mary is not much different than asking your pastor to pray for you. The Bible is also very clear in the communion of the Body of Christ.
Sometimes people object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by saying that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages like Deuteronomy 18:10-11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mattew 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. There is no way going around THAT. However, to dismiss Mary and the saints in heaven is to reject them as part of the body of Christ.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. In Psalm 103:20-21, it says "Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will." Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us -- Revelation 5:8 says "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twnty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." This is also expressed in Revelation 8:3-4.
Each one of the verses you provided, I believe each one, but that doesn't quite me I agree with you personal interpretation. The Bible is also very clear on what we Christians are meant to do, and that is pray for and with one another, and this does not discard those who are part of the Christian family in heaven.
MichaelH
Inactive
It's not worship, OK.............. Brother, one way to be deceived and get to a place where the Lord can not speak to you and your unable to discern right from wrong is to call things different from what they are.
Also taking things from Scripture and Giving them a different light than what they really are.
I would love for you to bust out of Catholicism and I helped a few others, some hard headed though. True there are many good works in my opinion that Catholics are doing. I am thankful they do some things they are part of but that don't make them right, and it don't give you the best God has.
First, you have a ton of live believers here on earth that will be more than happy to pray for you. I don't consider myself chopped liver and I don't think of myself less than any of my other Brother and sisters in Heaven.
Your example of God having Elijah appear is only half the picture. That is deception on your part if you bring that up and should concern you in love that I don't want anyone fooled or deceived. I hate the devil and I hate what he does to people.
Your example falls flat on it's face if you just take the time to read the whole thing.
This is what I consider not calling things for what they are and missing what is there. It's a bad place to be. Look at this for me.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
(Mat 17:4)
If you will Lord, we should make a tabernacle for Moses, one for Elias (Elijah) and on for you. Peter was pretty awe struck and wanted to do the right thing, so He asked Jesus, if you will allow this, lets get to building 3 tabernacle's to honor you 3.
Notice Jesus never answered Peter? Peter was putting Jesus on the same level as Moses and Elijah.
Someone did notice what Peter said though and Jesus did not have to say a word.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
While Peter was asking Jesus about honoring all 3, The creator of the Universe spoke up. He said this is my beloved Son.......... HEAR YE HIM.
That put any thought down as honoring anyone else but Jesus and shut Peter up.
What did Peter learn?
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(2Pe 1:16-21)
Notice Peter did not Mention Elijah here or Moses. Peter also said despite what we saw, we have a More sure Word that had been been given by God directly. What did Jesus say about prayer?
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh_16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Who are we to ask anything? What did Jesus say?
Whatever you ask the father....................... That covers everything you might need to ask. Including any need to Hail Mary 200 times.
We pray for on another, not one time are we told to ask those who have died to be with the Lord to pray for us. Those in Heaven have no authority here on Earth. They have not part under the sun here anymore.
In fact, Jesus came in the flesh to have authority because in Order to have any authority and right here on Earth you need to be flesh and blood. This is why when Jesus left, He said from Henceforth you shall ask me nothing, but ask the Father in my name. We represent the body of Christ on earth and occupy until he comes again.
Lets talk about faith.
Let's call it for what it is.
What Rome calls faith is not faith. Faith moves things, even Mountains. Scripture never says to pray to anyone but the Father in Heaven. We can agree with each other though.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(Mat 18:19-20)
Agree where? Where these two at? Heaven?
EARTH!!!!!
Paul ask others to pray in agreement with him that the Word have a free course............... ON EARTH. The word does not need prayed for to have a free course in Heaven, nor does anyone need agreement that they be safe in Heaven as Paul asked others to pray that we be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.
There are no unreasonable and wicked men in Heaven. So Paul would not be needing that prayer to be delivered from them.
If two agree on EARTH Jesus said.
Mary can't agree to anything here on Earth. Nor can any of the other saints and we don't need to agree with them that they get fed and taken care of in Heaven. I can assure you they are doing just fine.
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
(1Jn 5:14-15)
John is not talking about praying to a dead saint or praying to Mary according to Her will. He said we can have confidence that if we ask God ANYTHING according to His will that He will always hear us.
Our Father always hears us.............................. If he hears us we have the petitions we desired of him.
Not Mary or some other dead saint.................. YOUR FATHER!!
Why waste time with Mary, that is not faith in God or Faith in anything.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Faith says God hears me and rewards me. This say anything about Mary having rewards or having faith in Mary?
Mary can't have faith for us, that is not scriptural. Jesus said all things are possible to those that believe, not what someone else believes for you.
I can pray for you healing, but I can't override your faith.
Mary can't override your faith either and Jesus won't even override your faith.
That is why it makes it pointless to pray to anyone else besides the Father. If I don't have faith in the Father then I don't believe He is a rewarder to those that go to him and then I can't please God anyway so it's all pointless.
God never rewarded anyone according to His faith or His ability.
He rewards us according to our faith in Him.
Mat_9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat_9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
(Act 14:8-9)
When Jairus came to Jesus and yet speaking Jairus servants came saying bother the Master no more your daughter is dead...... The first thing Jesus said was ......... Fear NOT BELIEVE ONLY
Asking someone else to do our praying is not faith. Even Jesus did not do that and Jesus never used his faith to override someones unbelief. If Jesus did just step in and override someones faith, then Peter would have never started to sink while walking on the water.
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
(Mar 6:4-6)
This did not say Jesus choose not to do mighty works and help the people, It says He could not do them. The Lord never forced anything on anyone who would not believe.
So asking others to do your praying to the Father will get zero results for you. It's according to what you believe, not what they believe.
Those new in the Lord, we can go to God on their behalf of course but they must grow up. I can't operate like I did when I first knew Jesus. I can't have others doing my praying for me. I can agree with someone ON EARTH and we both can be in faith and get results.
I ask you consider what your involved in here. We can help other denominations but we don't have to be part of what is wrong with them.
Quite a bit written (which I appreciate your time in reading my response and you writing yours). I'll do my best to explain.
I agree that twisting scripture and ignoring certain facts in order to be comfortable does absolutely no good. This is why I stopped being a Protestant (with all due respect). I surrendered to the notion that all can translate the Bible any way he wishes without papal authority, a vehicle of the Holy Spirit. To claim one can do it and act on that is pride, and pride is an incredible tool of Satan.
Am I suggesting my evangelical Protestant friends are of Satan? Not at all -- they are wonderful people who have a true heart for God. But only acting on one's own interpretation seems very devilish.
Consider the difference between what time is on earth vs. time in the heavenly realm; on earth, we have a series of seconds, minutes, hours, etc, and they move one by one. In heaven, this is not time. Our Christian relationships on earth are NOT chopped liver--YOU are not chopped liver. The body of Christ, whether in heaven or earth, is not one bit chopped liver. But the saints in heaven, and Mary in heaven, because they are not restricted by this thing called time, AND are closer to God than we are, provide incredible prayers for us on earth. Their prayers continue where as ours may last for a few minutes or so.
Does this mean we don't need to ask one another on earth to pray for each other? Of course not. As stated before, those on earth are also part of the body of Christ, and just like Mary and the saints shouldn't be put aside, neither should those on earth.
Your translation of this passage is absolutely right -- I'm not arguing against that. Peter either downplayed Jesus or upgraded Moses and Elijah to Jesus' level, and both would be wrong. However, that was not my statement.
My referencing this passage was in regards to the communion of saints and the argument against comparing asking saints to intercede in prayers to God vs. something evil like seances and conjuring up the dead.
If one prays to, say, the Blessed Mother for whatever reason, but does it on some sort of equal level as God, then that person has done the same wrong thing as Peter in this passage. It bears repeating again that doing something like that is NOT Catholic. It is NOT Christian. It becomes idolatry and is therefore forbidden.
I'm not sure what Elijah or Moses, or anyone else would have to do with this passage in 2 Peter. He was expressing the divinity of Christ and divorcing from man's nonsense.
MichaelH, I'm really not trying to be rude in the slightest, but what I said before about Catholics not treating anyone as equal or above the levels of God...it seems to be going in one ear and out the other.
Catholics, just like Protestants, believe that God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) is the ONLY one deserving of worship. No one else.
Amen to the verses! All prayers deserve to be of God. Not one prayer should ever, EVER, bypass Him.
Let me repeat once more...and again, no offense, I'm hoping you will understand this time.
Any prayer (meaning any prayer at all) that is said to a saint or to Mary is NEVER (not even once) to be said disconnecting God. In other words, every prayer should always be said with the intention of it being said TO God, ABOUT His glory, and with Him as the ultimate authority, because He is the only, true God.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. You are stuck on this notion that a Hail Mary, for instance (or 200 as you keep saying) is in disregard to God.
MichaelH, you are still missing the point. You are right that those in heaven have no authority on Earth...they don't even have authority in heaven. However, nor do the Christians here on earth. The only one with true, ultimate authority is God. God has commanded us to pray for one another.
I'm going to encourage you to answer this question; I want a real answer...when anyone dies a Christian and goes to heaven...is that person now no longer in communion with the body of Christ? Is he now a sort of disconnected free agent? OR is he still part of the body of Christ?
Amen.
Scripture says in Exodus 20 that God is a jealous God...indeed. No one deserves praise or worship other than God. However, there is no such verse that says what you just said.
What is a prayer? In 'Much Ado About Nothing,' Shakespeare wrote that Leonato said to Antonio "I pray thee cease thy council." Was he worshiping him? No, he was making a request. When a prayer is said to Mary, it is a request that she pray for us. Can Mary no longer pray in heaven? Is she cut off from communication with her Son? Will we be once we're in heaven?
Psalm 103:20-21 expresses prayer to the angels, but also recognizing glory to God...is this an evil Bible verse? What about Revelation 8:3-4 or Revelation 5:8? When it talked about the golden bowls of incense being the prayers of the saints brought to God...are these also evil Bible verses? Since when is the Bible evil?
Yep. I agree. We are to come together, on earth, and pray to God, on earth, in worship and praise to Him...on earth. I absolutely agree. Where in this verse condemns doing the same with those in communion with Christ in heaven?
Let's not leave out Ephesians 2:19-20; "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,"
Let's not leave out Hebrews 12:1; "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"
Let's not leave out 1 Corinthians 14:33; "for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
You are assuming authority which is not given to you.
I never said the saints in heaven need to be prayed for. They're in heaven. What more could they need?
It seems you are twisting the context. You're assuming the verse is a restriction of praying to Mary or the saints, and that is not the meaning of the verse. The passage is about earthly communion. I never once said we shouldn't gather and pray for each other on earth -- that would be ridiculous and false.
Who said they weren't fine?
Dead saints? Mary's will? MichaelH, you are missing so much, no offense. Where in the Bible does it say the saints are dead? Who said anything about "Mary's will?" Wouldn't Mary's will be the seek of God's will? Isn't God's will what we should be looking toward? When Catholics pray to Mary, it is not in seeking of HER will...it is in accordance with God's will because His will the the only will worth seeking. However, do you think Mary disagrees with God? Mary has been a model for directing people to her Son. This is why in John 2:5 is regarded as such an important passage. "His mother said to the servants, 'Whatever He says to you, do it.'"
Amen.
Some dead saint? Look, you're still missing the point. When did I ever say a prayer to the saints or to Mary can or should go over God's head? If you can cite me on this, then I will turn in my Catholic card and return to Protestantism. I will even fly out to your church and worship with you next Sunday.
MichaelH, perhaps you should abandon your family, your friends, any of your loved ones, because they aren't on the same level as God? Why not? It's the same logic, no?
No one deserves worship...except for God. God alone. While that is 100% true, does this mean we can shove aside our brothers and sisters? Does this mean we don't have to honor our spouses or parents? Are we to honor our mother and father? If so, what about the mother of God? Is she just chopped liver?
If your wife's mother had died, would you say to her "She's just some dead woman"? Of course not. You'd be the worst person in the world to say that to your own wife about her mother. So why is it OK to say that about the mother of God? Again, this isn't suggesting worship...I can't stress that enough. I've said it about 10 times already...but where do you draw the line on this?
The case for Mary and Protestants can get me furious, because even Atheists don't know much better. They might say horrible things about Mary, but they don't understand. Protestants, who are Christians, still kick her down in the most insulting ways, and they should know better because they love Christ.
Who said anything about putting faith in Mary and not God? You're getting off topic.
Who said anything about that? I certainly didn't.
MichaelH...I don't know where to go with you on this. You just can't seem to understand. You are stuck to this nonsensical idea that praying to Mary means leaving God out. Or that it means not having faith in God. Faith in God is why people turn to Mary in asking her to pray for us. Why would anyone pray to Mary if they didn't have faith and love for God? It would be useless.
Going through everything you wrote, it just seems nothing is getting through. I don't mean that as an attack or offensively, but you keep insisting that a prayer to Mary or the saints equals kicking God out, or worshiping them, or not having faith in God, or disobeying the Bible, etc. etc. etc.
Every single response I have posted on this thread has mentioned NOT worshiping Mary, NOT disobeying God, ALWAYS worshiping Him, and ALWAYS having each prayer including Him, NOT bypassing Him. Every single one. And still, you only read what you want to read.
I mean no offense, but if this is the direction we're going, then I'm wasting my breath. I am sincerely listening to you. I really am. But you just don't want to listen to what I have to say. And that's just not how it works.
I agree that twisting scripture and ignoring certain facts in order to be comfortable does absolutely no good. This is why I stopped being a Protestant (with all due respect). I surrendered to the notion that all can translate the Bible any way he wishes without papal authority, a vehicle of the Holy Spirit. To claim one can do it and act on that is pride, and pride is an incredible tool of Satan.
Am I suggesting my evangelical Protestant friends are of Satan? Not at all -- they are wonderful people who have a true heart for God. But only acting on one's own interpretation seems very devilish.
Consider the difference between what time is on earth vs. time in the heavenly realm; on earth, we have a series of seconds, minutes, hours, etc, and they move one by one. In heaven, this is not time. Our Christian relationships on earth are NOT chopped liver--YOU are not chopped liver. The body of Christ, whether in heaven or earth, is not one bit chopped liver. But the saints in heaven, and Mary in heaven, because they are not restricted by this thing called time, AND are closer to God than we are, provide incredible prayers for us on earth. Their prayers continue where as ours may last for a few minutes or so.
Does this mean we don't need to ask one another on earth to pray for each other? Of course not. As stated before, those on earth are also part of the body of Christ, and just like Mary and the saints shouldn't be put aside, neither should those on earth.
Your translation of this passage is absolutely right -- I'm not arguing against that. Peter either downplayed Jesus or upgraded Moses and Elijah to Jesus' level, and both would be wrong. However, that was not my statement.
My referencing this passage was in regards to the communion of saints and the argument against comparing asking saints to intercede in prayers to God vs. something evil like seances and conjuring up the dead.
If one prays to, say, the Blessed Mother for whatever reason, but does it on some sort of equal level as God, then that person has done the same wrong thing as Peter in this passage. It bears repeating again that doing something like that is NOT Catholic. It is NOT Christian. It becomes idolatry and is therefore forbidden.
I'm not sure what Elijah or Moses, or anyone else would have to do with this passage in 2 Peter. He was expressing the divinity of Christ and divorcing from man's nonsense.
MichaelH, I'm really not trying to be rude in the slightest, but what I said before about Catholics not treating anyone as equal or above the levels of God...it seems to be going in one ear and out the other.
Catholics, just like Protestants, believe that God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) is the ONLY one deserving of worship. No one else.
Amen to the verses! All prayers deserve to be of God. Not one prayer should ever, EVER, bypass Him.
Let me repeat once more...and again, no offense, I'm hoping you will understand this time.
Any prayer (meaning any prayer at all) that is said to a saint or to Mary is NEVER (not even once) to be said disconnecting God. In other words, every prayer should always be said with the intention of it being said TO God, ABOUT His glory, and with Him as the ultimate authority, because He is the only, true God.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. You are stuck on this notion that a Hail Mary, for instance (or 200 as you keep saying) is in disregard to God.
MichaelH, you are still missing the point. You are right that those in heaven have no authority on Earth...they don't even have authority in heaven. However, nor do the Christians here on earth. The only one with true, ultimate authority is God. God has commanded us to pray for one another.
I'm going to encourage you to answer this question; I want a real answer...when anyone dies a Christian and goes to heaven...is that person now no longer in communion with the body of Christ? Is he now a sort of disconnected free agent? OR is he still part of the body of Christ?
Amen.
Scripture says in Exodus 20 that God is a jealous God...indeed. No one deserves praise or worship other than God. However, there is no such verse that says what you just said.
What is a prayer? In 'Much Ado About Nothing,' Shakespeare wrote that Leonato said to Antonio "I pray thee cease thy council." Was he worshiping him? No, he was making a request. When a prayer is said to Mary, it is a request that she pray for us. Can Mary no longer pray in heaven? Is she cut off from communication with her Son? Will we be once we're in heaven?
Psalm 103:20-21 expresses prayer to the angels, but also recognizing glory to God...is this an evil Bible verse? What about Revelation 8:3-4 or Revelation 5:8? When it talked about the golden bowls of incense being the prayers of the saints brought to God...are these also evil Bible verses? Since when is the Bible evil?
Yep. I agree. We are to come together, on earth, and pray to God, on earth, in worship and praise to Him...on earth. I absolutely agree. Where in this verse condemns doing the same with those in communion with Christ in heaven?
Let's not leave out Ephesians 2:19-20; "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,"
Let's not leave out Hebrews 12:1; "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"
Let's not leave out 1 Corinthians 14:33; "for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
You are assuming authority which is not given to you.
I never said the saints in heaven need to be prayed for. They're in heaven. What more could they need?
It seems you are twisting the context. You're assuming the verse is a restriction of praying to Mary or the saints, and that is not the meaning of the verse. The passage is about earthly communion. I never once said we shouldn't gather and pray for each other on earth -- that would be ridiculous and false.
Who said they weren't fine?
Dead saints? Mary's will? MichaelH, you are missing so much, no offense. Where in the Bible does it say the saints are dead? Who said anything about "Mary's will?" Wouldn't Mary's will be the seek of God's will? Isn't God's will what we should be looking toward? When Catholics pray to Mary, it is not in seeking of HER will...it is in accordance with God's will because His will the the only will worth seeking. However, do you think Mary disagrees with God? Mary has been a model for directing people to her Son. This is why in John 2:5 is regarded as such an important passage. "His mother said to the servants, 'Whatever He says to you, do it.'"
Amen.
Some dead saint? Look, you're still missing the point. When did I ever say a prayer to the saints or to Mary can or should go over God's head? If you can cite me on this, then I will turn in my Catholic card and return to Protestantism. I will even fly out to your church and worship with you next Sunday.
MichaelH, perhaps you should abandon your family, your friends, any of your loved ones, because they aren't on the same level as God? Why not? It's the same logic, no?
No one deserves worship...except for God. God alone. While that is 100% true, does this mean we can shove aside our brothers and sisters? Does this mean we don't have to honor our spouses or parents? Are we to honor our mother and father? If so, what about the mother of God? Is she just chopped liver?
If your wife's mother had died, would you say to her "She's just some dead woman"? Of course not. You'd be the worst person in the world to say that to your own wife about her mother. So why is it OK to say that about the mother of God? Again, this isn't suggesting worship...I can't stress that enough. I've said it about 10 times already...but where do you draw the line on this?
The case for Mary and Protestants can get me furious, because even Atheists don't know much better. They might say horrible things about Mary, but they don't understand. Protestants, who are Christians, still kick her down in the most insulting ways, and they should know better because they love Christ.
Who said anything about putting faith in Mary and not God? You're getting off topic.
Who said anything about that? I certainly didn't.
MichaelH...I don't know where to go with you on this. You just can't seem to understand. You are stuck to this nonsensical idea that praying to Mary means leaving God out. Or that it means not having faith in God. Faith in God is why people turn to Mary in asking her to pray for us. Why would anyone pray to Mary if they didn't have faith and love for God? It would be useless.
Going through everything you wrote, it just seems nothing is getting through. I don't mean that as an attack or offensively, but you keep insisting that a prayer to Mary or the saints equals kicking God out, or worshiping them, or not having faith in God, or disobeying the Bible, etc. etc. etc.
Every single response I have posted on this thread has mentioned NOT worshiping Mary, NOT disobeying God, ALWAYS worshiping Him, and ALWAYS having each prayer including Him, NOT bypassing Him. Every single one. And still, you only read what you want to read.
I mean no offense, but if this is the direction we're going, then I'm wasting my breath. I am sincerely listening to you. I really am. But you just don't want to listen to what I have to say. And that's just not how it works.
The dead know nothing, they go back to the giver until the day of judgement, we are all judged righteous and unrighteous, what everyone is trying to say is praying to Mary or a former saint here on earth does nothing, never was it even said to do in the Bible, the dead know nothing, they are in slumber until the say of judgement, Paul wrote about the resurrection. Everything goes through Jesus everything, not some things all.
Michael, who said we are dead in heaven? Isn't it written that those who are in heaven may have everlasting life? What is a former saint in contrast to a regular saint?
MichaelH
Inactive
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
There is your scripture......... The dead do not turn into Ghost, they don't field prayers in Heaven, they don't have any part, portion or any influence with things down here.
Saints are dead to everything under the sun..... spirits don't die however and Live on place or the other. Dead, sleep would be reference to body only, not the actual person. No scripture mentions we are part of the body of Christ in heaven. The body is left here on earth, (Until Resurrection) the scripture says instead we have family in heaven and Earth. So, Mary would be in your Family, she is your sister.
Those alive here would be Family in the earth.
I believe those great cloud of witness are our family in heaven.............. Being a witness is not a participant however we don't add things.
I never knowingly twist scripture. I don't know everything, but I always type what I am sure of.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
this verse say anything about praying to Mary? Even Jesus said.............. I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANY PRAYING FOR YOU ONCE I LEAVE!!!!
You think Mary is there there thinking...... UMMMM since Jesus won't, I best step in and help?
Or are we given instruction on who to pray to? And who's name we are given authority to use?
It does not say don't pray to Mary though. Does it. It does not say Mary's Name carries any authority but at the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, right?
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
Peter was not speaking about being Saved as in Born again, He was answering the question on how this man got healed and by what authority. Peter said it was faith in the name of Jesus and no other name given to men by which they can be healed....... (Sozo means healed and delivered in the Greek - Saved)
Praying some rosary is not getting anyone Healed, not getting anyone helped, does nothing.
No verse suggest ever praying to anyone but the Father, Your Father.
If your boss tells you to paint the cars blue and that was the only instruction for the cars. You say to yourself, the Boss never said anything about "NOT" painting them red also. So you paint some blue and some red.
When the boss gets back, and by your reasoning, you imagine that He will be happy that some of His cars were painted red also?
You have to admit that scripture can be added to and instruction in scripture means nothing to you if it goes against any instruction made up by men.
I would respect that more if you just come out and say though I have been given and shown instruction in the Word, I refuse to believe it and want to add my own stuff to it.
There is no reason why you and I can't go to the Father directly. Jesus paid for that, and no other instruction that we ask anyone else but the father in heaven.
I want to help, but if it's to late, then say so.
blessings.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
There is your scripture......... The dead do not turn into Ghost, they don't field prayers in Heaven, they don't have any part, portion or any influence with things down here.
Saints are dead to everything under the sun..... spirits don't die however and Live on place or the other. Dead, sleep would be reference to body only, not the actual person. No scripture mentions we are part of the body of Christ in heaven. The body is left here on earth, (Until Resurrection) the scripture says instead we have family in heaven and Earth. So, Mary would be in your Family, she is your sister.
Those alive here would be Family in the earth.
I believe those great cloud of witness are our family in heaven.............. Being a witness is not a participant however we don't add things.
I never knowingly twist scripture. I don't know everything, but I always type what I am sure of.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
this verse say anything about praying to Mary? Even Jesus said.............. I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANY PRAYING FOR YOU ONCE I LEAVE!!!!
You think Mary is there there thinking...... UMMMM since Jesus won't, I best step in and help?
Or are we given instruction on who to pray to? And who's name we are given authority to use?
It does not say don't pray to Mary though. Does it. It does not say Mary's Name carries any authority but at the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, right?
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
Peter was not speaking about being Saved as in Born again, He was answering the question on how this man got healed and by what authority. Peter said it was faith in the name of Jesus and no other name given to men by which they can be healed....... (Sozo means healed and delivered in the Greek - Saved)
Praying some rosary is not getting anyone Healed, not getting anyone helped, does nothing.
No verse suggest ever praying to anyone but the Father, Your Father.
If your boss tells you to paint the cars blue and that was the only instruction for the cars. You say to yourself, the Boss never said anything about "NOT" painting them red also. So you paint some blue and some red.
When the boss gets back, and by your reasoning, you imagine that He will be happy that some of His cars were painted red also?
You have to admit that scripture can be added to and instruction in scripture means nothing to you if it goes against any instruction made up by men.
I would respect that more if you just come out and say though I have been given and shown instruction in the Word, I refuse to believe it and want to add my own stuff to it.
There is no reason why you and I can't go to the Father directly. Jesus paid for that, and no other instruction that we ask anyone else but the father in heaven.
I want to help, but if it's to late, then say so.
blessings.
Has there been a resurrection of the dead that I do not know about, has Jesus already judged these people that you are talking about, that has not happened yet, very few have been taken to heaven already and we know there names because The Word gave them to us, first Enoch, then Elijah, and we know Moses from the mountain of Transfiguration. Jesus of course was resurrected from the dead, so I do not see were you think all these people are in heaven, the third heaven that is, it never says that, that is an assumption.
Glomung
Account Closed
Sorry boys, but Mikes, you're just wrong.
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Christ said to the fellow hanging next to Him "today you will be with me in paradise". Dead folks don't experience paradise.
Many supposedly "dead" saints have been seen and spoken with over the centuries.
You need to take the "protestant blinders" off for a minute and listen to what's being written to you.
As a bonus - the latest message from St. Mary herself (January 2, 2014)
“Dear children; For you to be able to be my apostles and to be able to help all those who are in darkness, to come to know the light of the love of my Son, you must have pure and humble hearts. You can not help for my Son to be born in, and to reign in, the hearts of those who do not know Him, if He does not reign – if He is not the King – in your heart. I am with you. I am walking with you as a mother. I am knocking on your hearts. They can not open because they are not humble. I am praying, and you my beloved children also pray, that you may be able to open pure and humble hearts to my Son and to receive the gifts which He has promised you. Then you will be led by the love and strength of my Son. Then, you will be my apostles who everywhere around them spread the fruits of God’s love. My Son will act from within you and through you, because you will be “one”. My motherly heart yearns for this – for unity of all of my children – through my Son. With great love I bless, and pray for those who are chosen by my Son – for your shepherds.
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Christ said to the fellow hanging next to Him "today you will be with me in paradise". Dead folks don't experience paradise.
Many supposedly "dead" saints have been seen and spoken with over the centuries.
You need to take the "protestant blinders" off for a minute and listen to what's being written to you.
As a bonus - the latest message from St. Mary herself (January 2, 2014)
“Dear children; For you to be able to be my apostles and to be able to help all those who are in darkness, to come to know the light of the love of my Son, you must have pure and humble hearts. You can not help for my Son to be born in, and to reign in, the hearts of those who do not know Him, if He does not reign – if He is not the King – in your heart. I am with you. I am walking with you as a mother. I am knocking on your hearts. They can not open because they are not humble. I am praying, and you my beloved children also pray, that you may be able to open pure and humble hearts to my Son and to receive the gifts which He has promised you. Then you will be led by the love and strength of my Son. Then, you will be my apostles who everywhere around them spread the fruits of God’s love. My Son will act from within you and through you, because you will be “one”. My motherly heart yearns for this – for unity of all of my children – through my Son. With great love I bless, and pray for those who are chosen by my Son – for your shepherds.
No one is talking about resurrection. I'm confused with your response. Are you suggesting there is no heaven at all?
You are absolutely right God is the God of the living, but there bodies are dead, everyone soul lives on, but the judgement has not taken place, the only time the saints walked on the earth which is written in The Word is when Jesus gave up the ghost, the spirit goes back to the giver,
Ecclesiastes 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Funny how some people only take one verse and run with it and not research the entire Word, just what they want.
1 Corinthians 15:11-25
King James Version (KJV)
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:40-55
King James Version (KJV)
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
MichaelH, I'm not giving you this information in trying to convert you -- all I have been doing this entire time is explaining what the Catholic Church believes and what I believe. What you choose to do with it is up to you.
I think it's best the discussion takes an end. We both believe in every word of the Bible, but the problem is we both believe in two different interpretations, and we each believe it should be clear. I believe there is an order to translation of the Bible and you believe it is up to the individual to translate it himself.
My frustration with this conversation is that I will say one thing, then you will repeat it and then add something that I would never claim at all. For instance, I may say that prayer to Mary is asking her to pray for us, and you tend to add that it means kicking God out of the prayer -- something that is absolutely wrong.
Let us end this discussion, pray for one another that the Holy Spirit will give more wisdom to each of us and that we will each better understand one another's position of Christianity. I hope you will agree with me on that.
According to what you are saying the judgement has already come to pass, if you can not understand what I was saying I feel sorry for your understanding never ounce did I discredit heaven, what you are saying the dead have already been judged, even the angels that have sinned have not been judged yet, but these people got to skip the taking away of the Church, and the day of judgment.
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you -- it's not your fault, it's mine.
I'm not suggesting the final day of judgement has taken place. However, as Christians, we do believe there is a place for each of us once we die, it's between Heaven and Hell. However, the final day of judgement is where the resurrection of the body will take place, as explained in 1 Corinthians 15. Though that's not what I am talking about either.
When discussing subjects like the saints, this isn't about their physical nature being complete -- rather, their spiritual nature, their souls in heaven with God.
Know one is in Heaven or hell there has been no judgment yet
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psalms 115:17 - The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Hebrews 9:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
John 5:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 - All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Revelation 1:18 - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
The resurrection has not happened yet, at least I hope not, and there has been no judgment yet, we do not die and are judged right away, we have to wait until the day of judgement.
2 Peter 2:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
This is a very hard verse to understand, but these are angels that he threw into hell, Lazarus was a parable to let people know not to commit iniquity and what it will feel like in hell, I hope these verses help.