Judaism was panthestic at first, so I can't really judge early primitive people .
Some thought Christians were polytheistic because of the Trinity.
You mean Abraham? He was a pagan until the Lord got hold of him.
MM
Judaism was panthestic at first, so I can't really judge early primitive people .
Some thought Christians were polytheistic because of the Trinity.
Right, and at that point he was a Gentile, not Jewish.You mean Abraham? He was a pagan until the Lord got hold of him.
MM
Right, and at that point he was a Gentile, not Jewish.
Perhaps, I've always thought Abram receiving circumcision and becoming Abraham was the Gentile -->Jewish turning point.He never was Jewish. They lay claim to him being such, but only his offspring, the 12 sons of Jacob onward. Only they were "Jews," although Abraham was their forefather. He was not Semitic in the traditional sense of the term.
MM
You mean Abraham? He was a pagan until the Lord got hold of him.
MM
My understanding is that in context Paul is making the case that there exists a distinction between a natural Jew without faith and a natural Jew with faith.Remember Paul talking about those Jews who were not really Jews just because of their genealogy?
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
My understanding is that in context Paul is making the case that there exists a distinction between a natural Jew without faith and a natural Jew with faith.
elsewhere, Abraham is mentioned...
Romans 4:11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
This, (if I'm not mistaken), makes Abraham a true Jew.
So perhaps after Sinai (law) Abraham wasn't Jewish but after Faith (the Promise) and acc. to Rom 2:28-29 he is.
(whatever happened to the flat earth topic?)
I guess I would associate Abraham with true faith rather than the law; just as I would associate a true Jew to true faith+lineage. By this means the Church ≠ (is not) IsraelThat's exactly my point. Thank you. Yes, those without faith were not Jews, because a true Jew is a Jew who believes in the Messiah, Chrost Jesus.
Abraham, however, predates the age of the Jews. Individuals can label him as such, but to him, being called a Jew would have had no meaning whatsoever. THAT is what I call context, when we consider the age and the people in it. The Mosaic Law did not exist in his time, and the Ten Commandments did not exist. Torah-ists believe THEY know what law Abraham obeyed, and they label it as the pre-written Mosaic Law. That is an argument from silence, so I choose to not give myself over to their dogmas about that.
MM
I guess I would associate Abraham with true faith rather than the law; just as I would associate a true Jew to true faith+lineage. By this means the Church ≠ (is not) Israel
Sometimes I wonder.had the earth been flat, then why not our heads...?