Flat-earthers Never Seem to Learn
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Right, and at that point
he was a Gentile, not Jewish.Right, and at that point
He never was Jewish. They lay claim to him being such, but only his offspring, the 12 sons of Jacob onward. Only they were "Jews," although Abraham was their forefather. He was not Semitic in the traditional sense of the term.
MM
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Perhaps, I've always thought Abram receiving circumcision and becoming Abraham was the Gentile -->Jewish turning point.
Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Genesis 17:24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
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ButterflyJones
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Well, I hope you all don't mind me expanding upon my point about Abrham:
I do not appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy, and I try to avoid rationalizing something into scripture what isn't there, so...
It's a good thing that Abraham was a Gentile, from whom the Jewish nation sprang forth, and through whom the people's of the world would be blessed.
Given the pagan, Gentile origins of Abraham, that is the basis upon which I will point as to how we are his spiritual children...all who are in Christ, that is.
Remember Paul talking about those Jews who were not really Jews just because of their genealogy?
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So, if it were possible for one to become a Jew (Semite) by blood or conversion, that too is an impossibility.
Deuteronomy 14:21 Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Ezeliel 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.
So, converts were still counted among those called "stranger", and aliens were passing through, sojourners, those who would buy the meats butchered from animals that died natural deaths.
So, in Christ, we are not made Jews, but rather spiritual offspring of Abraham.
Does all that make sense?
MM
I do not appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy, and I try to avoid rationalizing something into scripture what isn't there, so...
It's a good thing that Abraham was a Gentile, from whom the Jewish nation sprang forth, and through whom the people's of the world would be blessed.
Given the pagan, Gentile origins of Abraham, that is the basis upon which I will point as to how we are his spiritual children...all who are in Christ, that is.
Remember Paul talking about those Jews who were not really Jews just because of their genealogy?
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So, if it were possible for one to become a Jew (Semite) by blood or conversion, that too is an impossibility.
Deuteronomy 14:21 Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Ezeliel 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.
So, converts were still counted among those called "stranger", and aliens were passing through, sojourners, those who would buy the meats butchered from animals that died natural deaths.
So, in Christ, we are not made Jews, but rather spiritual offspring of Abraham.
Does all that make sense?
MM
My understanding is that in context Paul is making the case that there exists a distinction between a natural Jew without faith and a natural Jew with faith.
elsewhere, Abraham is mentioned...
Romans 4:11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
This, (if I'm not mistaken), makes Abraham a true Jew.
So perhaps after Sinai (law) Abraham wasn't Jewish but after Faith (the Promise) and acc. to Rom 2:28-29 he is.
(whatever happened to the flat earth topic?)
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That's exactly my point. Thank you. Yes, those without faith were not Jews, because a true Jew is a Jew who believes in the Messiah, Chrost Jesus.
Abraham, however, predates the age of the Jews. Individuals can label him as such, but to him, being called a Jew would have had no meaning whatsoever. THAT is what I call context, when we consider the age and the people in it. The Mosaic Law did not exist in his time, and the Ten Commandments did not exist. Torah-ists believe THEY know what law Abraham obeyed, and they label it as the pre-written Mosaic Law. That is an argument from silence, so I choose to not give myself over to their dogmas about that.
MM
I guess I would associate Abraham with true faith rather than the law; just as I would associate a true Jew to true faith+lineage. By this means the Church ≠ (is not) Israel
I agree. The Church is not Israel. The Church was/is God's continuation with His plan, as stated in John 3:16. Israel is special, and the Lord will graft them back in in His own time.
As the Church, we can certainly agree that, had the earth been flat, then why not our heads...? I mean, the rationalizations of flat-earthers makes as much sense as to say that the gravitational forces of a flat plant should also have flattened our heads.
Besides that, gravity would have everyone around the outer edge of a flat earth leaning outward, since the majority of the mass would have to be inward, toward the center of the flatness.
MM
I guess nobody's ever seen a world globe.
That was the first thing I asked for in a library. We have atlases, but they only give you a skewed and limited perspective of the planet earth depending on the cartographer.
So if anyone is reading this, pray that I find a decent one so I can teach my children how to explore the earth.
That was the first thing I asked for in a library. We have atlases, but they only give you a skewed and limited perspective of the planet earth depending on the cartographer.
So if anyone is reading this, pray that I find a decent one so I can teach my children how to explore the earth.