I am doing a message this weekend on Hell. the more I think about it the more disturbing it is -- everlasting torture? I am a Bible believing Christian. It just seems so harsh -- everlasting punishment for temporal crimes. What am I missing?
Hell
- Thread starter joshhuntnm
- Start date
I think you're missing the total harshness and offense that comes with sin. It is the epitome of the opposite of holiness. It is the offense of an infinite Being that earns an infinite punishment. Human emotions are also damaged by sin and should not be trust in evaluating anything.
Be that as it may, I can't help but consider that eternal, even though it means just that, is not to be understood as 1000 billion billion years and then that over again and again and.........
I don't see that time is integral with eternity. That said, to go from this life with no prospect of ever enjoying fellowship with the Lord, or enjoying His good will..ever is not something to be eagerly awaited.
my thoughts anyway.
I don't see that time is integral with eternity. That said, to go from this life with no prospect of ever enjoying fellowship with the Lord, or enjoying His good will..ever is not something to be eagerly awaited.
my thoughts anyway.
Here is a view I had never thought of till today:
There are two primary perspectives on the extent of hell’s punishment. One view contends that the wicked experience eternal conscious suffering (Walvoord, “The Literal”). The other view argues that the wicked eventually are consumed by hell’s fire, thereby forfeiting their existence (Fudge, “The Final End”).
Matthew 10:28 might imply that hell destroys both the body and the soul, making punishment only temporary. However, other texts support the eternal duration of hell’s punishment. For example, Jesus, drawing on Isa 66:24, speaks of hell as the place where the worm never dies and the fire is never extinguished (Mark 9:48). In Matthew 25:46, it seems that the punishment is forever rather than for a while. Jesus claims that upon death some people will go to eternal punishment while others will enter into eternal life.
Seal, D. (2012). Hell. In Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
There are two primary perspectives on the extent of hell’s punishment. One view contends that the wicked experience eternal conscious suffering (Walvoord, “The Literal”). The other view argues that the wicked eventually are consumed by hell’s fire, thereby forfeiting their existence (Fudge, “The Final End”).
Matthew 10:28 might imply that hell destroys both the body and the soul, making punishment only temporary. However, other texts support the eternal duration of hell’s punishment. For example, Jesus, drawing on Isa 66:24, speaks of hell as the place where the worm never dies and the fire is never extinguished (Mark 9:48). In Matthew 25:46, it seems that the punishment is forever rather than for a while. Jesus claims that upon death some people will go to eternal punishment while others will enter into eternal life.
Seal, D. (2012). Hell. In Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
Josh, I'd go with Walvoord. It is man's thinking that places a time on punishment not the Lord. See the thing is:
Now, we can repent. Now we can be blessed along with the righteous (I'm speaking of the unsaved).
Then, we will not be able to repent. Then we will not share in the blessings of our neighbor. Then we will be shut out into utter darkness.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I wouldn't stake my eternal security on the idea that being denied access to the tree of life (V14) means obliteration; just a very meager existence.
Now, we can repent. Now we can be blessed along with the righteous (I'm speaking of the unsaved).
Then, we will not be able to repent. Then we will not share in the blessings of our neighbor. Then we will be shut out into utter darkness.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I wouldn't stake my eternal security on the idea that being denied access to the tree of life (V14) means obliteration; just a very meager existence.
I like discussing hell, it really helps with our understanding of God.
As I said in the last thread on hell, consider the fallen angels!!
They are banished but not suffering. Their time of suffering is coming. The devil has 1000 years falling in a bottomless pit coming his way, is that suffering? The demons that Jesus cast into pigs said 'why have you come to torment us before our time', they knew their time of suffering is coming.
Also if we look at all the scripture saying that God is a fair judge. Saying that we have the ability to judge and hand out sentences. If I go by this and I do, I see suffering being in proportion to the evil done. When Jesus says 'eternal punishment' I see punishment as two-fold, punishment of eternal banishment and punishment of suffering for sins committed. I personally believe that all fallen humans and angels will one-day live in place where there is no suffering but no presence of God either.
Fallens angels and humans choose to NOT be with God. It would be evil of God to not honour their decision when He has given them free will to make it. Destroying them would in a sense not be honouring it either? God still loves them, He just can't be with them because of their choice.
As I said in the last thread on hell, consider the fallen angels!!
They are banished but not suffering. Their time of suffering is coming. The devil has 1000 years falling in a bottomless pit coming his way, is that suffering? The demons that Jesus cast into pigs said 'why have you come to torment us before our time', they knew their time of suffering is coming.
Also if we look at all the scripture saying that God is a fair judge. Saying that we have the ability to judge and hand out sentences. If I go by this and I do, I see suffering being in proportion to the evil done. When Jesus says 'eternal punishment' I see punishment as two-fold, punishment of eternal banishment and punishment of suffering for sins committed. I personally believe that all fallen humans and angels will one-day live in place where there is no suffering but no presence of God either.
Fallens angels and humans choose to NOT be with God. It would be evil of God to not honour their decision when He has given them free will to make it. Destroying them would in a sense not be honouring it either? God still loves them, He just can't be with them because of their choice.
The fact is that the Bible does not teach the traditional view of final punishment. Scripture nowhere suggests that God is an eternal torturer. It never says the damned will writhe in ceaseless torment or that the glories of heaven will forever be blighted by the screams from hell. The idea of conscious everlasting torment was a grievous mistake, a horrible error, a gross slander against the heavenly Father, whose character we truly see in the life of Jesus of Nazareth.
Scripture teaches instead that those who go to hell will experience “everlasting destruction” in “the second death,” for God is able to “destroy both body and soul in hell.” The actual process of destruction may well involve conscious pain that differs in magnitude in each individual case—Scripture seems to indicate that it will. Whatever the case, God’s judgment will be measured by perfect, holy, divine justice. Even hell will demonstrate the absolute righteousness of God. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible repeatedly warns that the wicked will “die,” “perish” or “be destroyed.” Those who die this second death will never live again.
A growing host of respected biblical scholars now publicly question the traditional notion that God will keep the lost alive forever so he can punish them without end. These include such luminaries as F. F. Bruce, Michael Green, Philip E. Hughes, Dale Moody, Clark H. Pinnock, W. Graham Scroggie, John R. W. Stott and John W. Wenham. These men represent evangelical Christian scholarship at its best. They recognize that Scripture must judge all traditions and creeds, not the other way around. They realize that most of the church was wrong for centuries on doctrines far more fundamental than the doctrine of hell, and they understand that it would be presumptuous to suppose that the majority might not have erred on this point just as it did on others.
J. I. Packer rightly notes that “we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, . . . even ‘evangelical’ tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scripture.”4 John Stott reminds us that “the hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform.”5 The growing evangelical rejection of the traditional doctrine of unending conscious torment is not propelled by emotionalism, sentimentality or compromise with culture but by absolute commitment to the authority of Scripture and by the conviction that a faithful church must be a church that is always reforming.
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) by Robert A. Peterson, Edward W. Fudge
Scripture teaches instead that those who go to hell will experience “everlasting destruction” in “the second death,” for God is able to “destroy both body and soul in hell.” The actual process of destruction may well involve conscious pain that differs in magnitude in each individual case—Scripture seems to indicate that it will. Whatever the case, God’s judgment will be measured by perfect, holy, divine justice. Even hell will demonstrate the absolute righteousness of God. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible repeatedly warns that the wicked will “die,” “perish” or “be destroyed.” Those who die this second death will never live again.
A growing host of respected biblical scholars now publicly question the traditional notion that God will keep the lost alive forever so he can punish them without end. These include such luminaries as F. F. Bruce, Michael Green, Philip E. Hughes, Dale Moody, Clark H. Pinnock, W. Graham Scroggie, John R. W. Stott and John W. Wenham. These men represent evangelical Christian scholarship at its best. They recognize that Scripture must judge all traditions and creeds, not the other way around. They realize that most of the church was wrong for centuries on doctrines far more fundamental than the doctrine of hell, and they understand that it would be presumptuous to suppose that the majority might not have erred on this point just as it did on others.
J. I. Packer rightly notes that “we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, . . . even ‘evangelical’ tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scripture.”4 John Stott reminds us that “the hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform.”5 The growing evangelical rejection of the traditional doctrine of unending conscious torment is not propelled by emotionalism, sentimentality or compromise with culture but by absolute commitment to the authority of Scripture and by the conviction that a faithful church must be a church that is always reforming.
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) by Robert A. Peterson, Edward W. Fudge
I disagree 1 000 000% with you on God outright destroying all 
.
One-day we will have power to judge all things.....even God and His decisions. Of course I nervously say God, but a good God would not keep us in the dark on His actions. I don't see a good, loving, perfect God destroying lucifer...even though he deserves it. Look at how Jesus spoke to him. Look at how God uses him. Look at how the fallen angels have been existing for so long already, yet their suffering is coming and will be grouped with humans. If God wanted to destroy them, they would already be destroyed....The only counter argument would be that God wanted the fallen angels to tempt mankind and bring us the knowledge of evil. But that would show a lack of discerning. Mankind would have fallen even in the absence of the devil. The devil only sped it up.
If you believe in true free will you cannot believe that God will 'destroy' anyone! We have free will to reject God. If rejection resulted in Him destroying us, that would not be fair or true free will!
.One-day we will have power to judge all things.....even God and His decisions. Of course I nervously say God, but a good God would not keep us in the dark on His actions. I don't see a good, loving, perfect God destroying lucifer...even though he deserves it. Look at how Jesus spoke to him. Look at how God uses him. Look at how the fallen angels have been existing for so long already, yet their suffering is coming and will be grouped with humans. If God wanted to destroy them, they would already be destroyed....The only counter argument would be that God wanted the fallen angels to tempt mankind and bring us the knowledge of evil. But that would show a lack of discerning. Mankind would have fallen even in the absence of the devil. The devil only sped it up.
If you believe in true free will you cannot believe that God will 'destroy' anyone! We have free will to reject God. If rejection resulted in Him destroying us, that would not be fair or true free will!
The comment was..................
"The fact is that the Bible does not teach the traditional view of final punishment. Scripture nowhere suggests that God is an eternal torturer. It never says the damned will writhe in ceaseless torment ".
I have to disagree with that.
The fact is that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27). That alone should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than just temporary creatures passing through time.
I find it very interesting no one complains that eternal happiness in heaven is unjust in the case of those who have served God only on this earth. We tend to reject "eternal punishment" in hell but not "eternal happiness" in heaven.
The biblical doctrine of eternal punishment in hell is as clear as a teaching can be; it is naught but human emotionalism that obscures the issue for some because we chose to believe that a loving God would not do such a thing to His children.
Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)
" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Though an someone may terminate one’s bodily existence, he cannot destroy his soul. This could not have been said if human beings were entirely mortal.
1 Peter 3:4
King James Version (KJV)
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Peter spoke of the need to clothe one’s “spirit” with “incorruptible” apparel . This imagery would hardly be appropriate if the human spirit itself were corruptible.
Revelation 6:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
John saw a vision of martyrs underneath the altar of God. The text specifically affirms that John saw “the souls of them that had been slain” (v. 9). “Soul” cannot be a figure of speech for the entire person, because John saw the “souls of them” that were slain. Moreover, these souls were under the altar of God, but their dead bodies were still on earth. The resurrection had not tanken place. Additionally, these souls were conscious, as evinced by the fact that they: spoke (crying out to the Lord); wondered (“How long, O God?”); remembered (their fellow saints still on earth); reasoned (concluding that the punishment of evil men is just); and, received a preliminary reward (white robes) in anticipation of the final victory (vv. 10-11).
Mark 9:43-48........
KJV
And if thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into thekingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Rev. 20:10............
John describes those in the “lake of fire” being "tormented day and night forever and ever." The expression day and night is used in Revelation to express the concept of “forever.”
The lake of fire is described in Rev.19:20as a place that "burns with brimsstone ." In the saddest verse in the Bible, John declares that anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is "thrown into the lake of fire" .
Your underlined lines have been on my mind for a while!I know we have discussed this before and that you believe in fair judgement dished out. But this scripture clearly says 'fire will never be quenched'
. Do you agree with my post #8? If so, what context am I missing for the above scriptures?
I know we have discussed this before and that you believe in fair judgement dished out. But this scripture clearly says 'fire will never be quenched'
A couple of things to consider.
We do not know if the fallen angels are being tormented or not.
Rev. 20 says that they are "chained". Myself......it seems to me that would mean some kind of torment, I just do not know.
As for the phrase in Mark, we know that it was used by Jesus as a spiritual lesson. THe Valley of Hinnon was a dumb where the fire burned all the time. There were worms in the debris and Jesus said that beside the fire, the worms did not die but had to endure the fire that burned.
Now consider Rev. 19:20
"and the beast was taken and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire and brimstone".
OK. We now have the A/C and false prophet in the lake of fire.
Now lets consider Rev 20:10........
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER".
The point is that the A/C and false prophet ARE STILL IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. THEY WERE NOT ANNILATED.
How did your message go? Was it well recieved?
I remember my first sermon ever was on the topic of sin - very difficult to preach the bad stuff when there are so many more encouraging topics to preach on but is is essential people get the whole picture and not only half truths.
And do you have scripture to support the idea of a loving supreme being who will wipe the person mercifully out of existence?
I'm curious...what Church group are you affiliated with?
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
You are confusing destruction with annihilation. If I throw a glass against a wall, it is destroyed, but it does not cease to exist. Destruction does not necessarily imply cessation. Matthew 25:46
'And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.'
There is no way to take this verse to mean what it says and come up with annihilationism.
I don't think any of us would put someone into a fire for any length of time. But the difference between us and God is that He is totally holy, and we are not. Our thoughts are not his thoughts, and our sense of justice is colored by our fallen nature. We do not see sin in all it's seriousness.
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
When the Bible uses the phrase 'everlasting destruction' in II Thessalonians 1:9, it uses the greek word 'olethron'. This word means ruin, destroy, or death. The idea here is that the wicked suffer everlasting ruin, not annihilation. Although, in some cases, destruction can be equivalent to annihilation, that is clearly not the case here. Since we are told that they face 'everlasting punishment', they cannot be annihilated and that phrase make any sense. Death does not imply cessation in scripture, rather separation. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body, the second death is the separation of the soul from God.
The word "perish" as it occurs in John 3:16 (and many other passages) is a Greek word that means "frustration of original purpose" and never means annihilation. For example, it is the same word used in the parable of the "lost sheep." The sheep aren't annihilated, but the purpose of keeping sheep is to harvest the wood and the mutten which can't be done if the sheep is lost. It is also used in the parable of the "lost coin." The purpose of having a coin was to spend it and that is impossible if the coin is lost. There is no word in the Greek of the New Testament that can be rendered as "annihilation." As has already been pointed out here, Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 are quite clearly indicating that eternal punishment is a torment that has no termination. A sin against an infinite and eternal God can only be punished by an infinite and eternal way. Why would Jesus have said that it was better for Judas "had he never been born" (Mt. 26:24) if Judas would be annihilated? That would be "equal" to never having been born.