HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
A Biblical principle can hold true even if the word we choose to call it does not appear.
Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?
- Thread starter Scripture Bird
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Hi, Silk.Just a thought: When God told Abraham about the coming destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, Abraham began to "negotiate" ....I believe it came down to 10 righteous men - if there were 10 righteous men living in the condemned cities - they would not be destroyed. (I assume the 10 could be women as well). Are we our brother's keeper - is it possible the true faith of the few could save us all? We are told to love our fellow human beings, believer or not. It's the only half way convincing argument I have for a pre- trib rapture - that like Lot - the evil is too wide spread. And I think Lot was taken out, only because of God's love for Abraham - not because he was righteous. But doesn't that mean we didn't pray hard enough for our brothers/sisers to see the truth?
Of course, you know that the Bible is clear that each one of us is responsible for our own sins and not for those of our ancestors or children.And you know that the Bible calls Lot "righteous." I have never studied that verse, never looked it up in Greek, but if the translation is correct . . . .
I could be wrong - but I don't recall Lot being called righteous. I dunno, and I understand about hospitality of the times and all - but offering your virgin daughters to the mob and then geting drunk after and taking those same daughter's virginity? I forgot - what happened to those offspring?
The Bible does call him "righteous" more than once. Can't remember where.
I think, however, that we tend to think of Lot as we do politicians, old Uncle Harry, and that bratty child who is now grown up: we forget that people have pasts they can leave behind and that salvation changes those who believe. We tend to think mainly of the sins and think the people have remained the same. Lot had plenty of time to repent and change his ways, and one would think that what he had seen, as well as what he was seeing, would cause him to repent.
I think, however, that we tend to think of Lot as we do politicians, old Uncle Harry, and that bratty child who is now grown up: we forget that people have pasts they can leave behind and that salvation changes those who believe. We tend to think mainly of the sins and think the people have remained the same. Lot had plenty of time to repent and change his ways, and one would think that what he had seen, as well as what he was seeing, would cause him to repent.
No the opposite is not a "robot" the opposite would be a slave, such as a "slave" to sin...the scriptures does not promote that man has power to serve God in the effect of his own will, but clearly shows the opposite as being true. and obedience is NEVER described as walking in ones own "free-will" that's completely unbiblical.
Lot, unlike all the other inhabitants of the city, had the chance to change, unless you think he was acting righteous before and after the daughters thing? At any rate, Abraham never did get down to one righteous man. And my understanding was that when Lot separated from Abraham (after Abraham and all his men risked their lives to save Lot) and went to Sodom - he was with a household full of adult men? And they weren't saved. I just think Lot was saved out of love of Abraham.
No "predestination" does not, but those who twist these biblical terms into error are the issue. Who cares what a Calvinist believes? I have never met one...ever! They only are used by some as a type of strawman in order to speak against what these terms really mean, in the true grace of God.
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well the term self-righteousness is not in the bible either, it is still abomination and an error!
All all these terms can and have been twisted to promote error.well the term self-righteousness is not in the bible either, it is still abomination and an error!
Actually "rapture" is in the scriptures it's just we've translated it to Latin before coming into English, it's called harpatzo... catch away violently.
- Original: ἁρπάζω
- Transliteration: Harpazo
- Phonetic: har-pad'-zo
- Definition:
1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away
- Origin: from a derivative of G138
- TDNT entry: 08:52,8
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
Here's the verse list with this word in it:
Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
John 10:28-29 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.
2Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rapture:
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
[Obsolete French, abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus.]
Glomung
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Mitspa, you should at least make a token attempt to refute what I have stated, rather than the paltry "No it's not."
I've met way too many Calvinists, you must not be paying attention.
Here ya go dear one,
2Pe 2:7 And He delivered righteous Lot, oppressed with the lustful behavior of the lawless.
In Abe's negotiating with the Lord he stopped at ten, hoping that Lot (1), his wife (2), his two married daughters (4) and their husbands (6), his two young daughters (8) who hadn't reached the age of accountability and their two future husbands (10) would be spared,
but...............(now here comes the hijack that I'm so well known for),
Lot is a type or illustration of the church that will be taken to safety before the wrath of God falls on this planet and it's inhabitants, Lot is an illustration of a carnal Christian, whereas Enoch is an illustration of a spiritual Christian, both will be taken in the Rapture, his two daughters were under the age of accountability so they were spared, hence ALL children under the age of accountability will be taken with the Church, his wife is a type of a modern day pew warmer and his other daughters...., actually Lot's story here is a Scriptural commentary on John 1:12, 13.
My two cents,
Blessings,
Gene
Oh, thank you! I just looked it up, and this was what I intended, which includes the Scripture you gave here:
2 Peter 2:4-10
This Scriptures emphasizes Lot's righteousness many times:
7 and c delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, d tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)
Again, thank you!
Hey Gene (waves and smiles). Where in the OT does it say Lot was righteous? Just wondering. And what happened to the offspring from the cave activities? I don't think they became part of the people of Israel but my memory is bad - didn't they became part of Israel's enemies? I admit the story, as a whole has some legs for pre trib rapture because of the fact that 10 righteous men could have stopped what happened to Sodom but "carnal Christians" ruins it for me. What are carnal christians?
Lot being righteous was a side point, anyways. The failure of Sodom and Gomorrah was there was no righteous people there. In reading this thread, all I could see was people not caring about those who are lost. The Bible is full of loving others as you do yourself - it is also filled with things like warnings about false doctrines, prophets and preachers - why warn people who can't be mislead. If we as humans have no choices in the matter? What if your salvation is really dependant on even one other being saved? Would anyone then, pray for the unbeliever? I'm wondering - does that mean we can't choose what to pray for?
Hey precious, (waving and smiling back), the OT doesn't say Lot was righteous because the stories of the OT are before the Cross and it details the sins of the characters in the stories, however (this is the good part), in the NT all of the bad stuff in the believer;s lives is never mentioned, that includes US, Praise The Lord, it's ALL under the Blood, oh happy days, I just wanna jump and shout, God is so good,
Now ain't that good news,
Lord ain't that good news,
Ain't that good news,
to hear today!
The offspring of the two incestuous relationships were the Moabites and the Edomites.
Carnal Christians are those children of God that are walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit, Paul called the Corinthians carnal,
For you are yet carnal. For in that there is among you envyings and strife and divisions, are you not carnal, and do you not walk according to men? For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal? 1Co 3:3, 4
Blessings,
Gene
No you used a term that is very biblical and has great importance and dismissed it in the name of Calvinism. My point being that the biblical term is not defeated because someone named Calvin and others in his name have made errors about its true biblical meaning..you must not be paying attention?
He surrendered to His Fathers will...He did not walk in His own will...Come on?
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