Ok I got to give you that one. Took me a minute. I was like say what ? Then I had to stop and grasp that your area swings down and we are up a tad... lol too funny. Hmmm I can say I live north of onterio now......rofl
Mark 16:9-20
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Ok I got to give you that one. Took me a minute. I was like say what ? Then I had to stop and grasp that your area swings down and we are up a tad... lol too funny. Hmmm I can say I live north of onterio now......rofl
As I was reading my Bible looking for another scripture....God reminded me that the exact same words of mark 16: 17-18 are in Luke 10:19. So its really silly to even have to debate the actual words. And in all reality all the verses that are in question are in luke and John.
Blessings
Yea well you know how it is............some people tend to go into more detail then others and some folks just hate that. rotfl
God Bless
Jim
Lk.2:50-51 Jn.18:10 ...........When peter cut of the ear of Malchus Jesus healed him without any faith present.
Jn.11 ............Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith, he was dead.
The Bible records Jesus doing more miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. He fed the 5,000 when they could not believe. (Lk.9:13-14 Mt.14:17) even after they had seen his provision they disbelieved again for the feeding of the 4,000 (Mt.15:33).
So when so- called faith teachers tell people their healing did not come because of their faith, its false. If God depended on man for a certain faith to be healed or rescued we all would be looking to ourselves for the power instead of relying on God. This is man centered and has nothing to do with the real faith delivered to the saints once and for all(Jude 3
When faith was required it was in Jesus, not necessarily that one believes they could be healed. The faith movement says faith is a condition for our healing those who are not healed, failed because they did not have the required amount of faith for God to react.
And Why not???
Not so.
Luke 10:19 speaks to power over scorpions and serpants.
Mark 16:17-18 includes "signs, casting out demons, tongues, drinking deadly water, and laying on of hands to heal the sick.
AND, this is exactly why some (Not me, some scholars) say that Mark 16:9-20 was added to Marks account by someone other than Mark. It does not correspond to other accounts.
Right..........truth often is found in the details!!!!
How much faith did Lazarus have?
How much faith did the demoniac have?
Bible truth:
Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercise in only10 of the accounts.
Bible truth:
2 Kings 13:14-20 Elisha died from a sickness even though he had a double portion.
Bible truth:
1 Tim.5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. He didn’t tell him to just believe and have more faith. There is no teaching like this found in the Scripture.
Bible truth:
2 Tim.4:20 ‘Trophemus I left in Miletus sick". Trophemus was a companion of Paul and Paul left him as he went on. He did not lay hands on him, for whatever reason he was left behind to recuperate, nor did he encourage him to have faith to be healed. Neither did he send an anointed handkerchief.
Bible truth:
Phil.2:26,30 Epaphroditus was a devoted servant of the Lord yet he became sick. He got sick in Rome and stayed that way for some time and almost died.
We see that prayers were not answered immediately until it was Gods will in his timing, it was not Gods will to heal him at first. No one came to lay hands on him or send him an anointed handkerchief nor was he rebuked for any lack of faith. God had mercy on him. We are no different in needing that mercy.
Jim, this debate is quite useless. YOU and Abdicate and Euphemia and CA are all members or followers of the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination. Now one or two will say that they are non-denomination but if you will read the Assembly of God statement of faith you will see that you all follow lock in step. I am NOT a believer in that faith and never will be as I think it is not Biblical and requires way too many Bible verse to be altered to be accepted.
I have noticed that all of you are only interested in ME. That is your reason for your comments. ME!!! Do not all of you see how self centered that is. This is NOT about me.
I among many others do not agree with your denominational teaching which you are putting forth all the time, and because I do not agree with you, all of a sudden you are all worried about ME. NO YOUR NOT!!!!
You are angry because I have taken a stance against what you are preaching and you are wanting make it appear that I am the problem.
I suggest you stop worrying about me and trying to explain your opinions because I do not agree with your theology and when you make comments that are not Bible and I point them out, instead of arguing about them or you worrying that I do no agree with you, we just say God bless and move on.
God bless you Jim!
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Yes, an addition inspired by God, Himself.
@Major
I am not a member of ANY denomination, and I would appreciate your refraining from pigeon-holing me and others.
My beliefs come only from the word of God and the gentle teaching of Holy Spirit in my life. Yes, you do not share some areas of my faith, and that is clear, but as one opens himself up to the leadership of Holy Spirit, one becomes more and more in tune with Him and what He says.
It's all a journey, my friend.
I am not a member of ANY denomination, and I would appreciate your refraining from pigeon-holing me and others.
My beliefs come only from the word of God and the gentle teaching of Holy Spirit in my life. Yes, you do not share some areas of my faith, and that is clear, but as one opens himself up to the leadership of Holy Spirit, one becomes more and more in tune with Him and what He says.
It's all a journey, my friend.
But you still don't believe it! And you give examples of Jesus when Jesus said their faith saved them as some form of opposition to His own words! You're digging a deeper hole brother, finding excuses to Jesus' own words. There's more to this than not believing...You had a very negative experience that involved a death, didn't you?
I don't attend any building so I'm not following anyone but Jesus and the word of God. Except for a Michael Card concert, I've not darkened the door of a church in years. You want to put me into a box so you can equate my quotes from the word of God as part of some human agenda. That won't hide the truth of the word of God. The truth hurts. It's like ripping off a scab that's infected. If you don't do it the infection spreads until it consumes you. You see me as attacking you but in reality I've got my hand outstretched to help you. God wants you to be free. I have no agenda. Truth has no agenda. Have only strong conviction for the whole truth.
This is an intriguing portion of scripture. On the surface, it seems that it is unfair that either, A. Jesus speaks in parables to hide wisdom from those who misunderstand, or B. God is holding back information from certain people for some reason, holding back salvation. Neither A or B is true IMO. So I must be missing something.
In Matthew 13:11-16, Jesus responds to the disciple's question of why He speaks to them in parables, "“Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. "
First, I ask, why was it given to the disciples but not to the others? What differentiates them? The disciples have something that the others do not, as Jesus says in verse 12. The disciples believe IN Jesus and have faith in Him. So faith seems to be the key here.
Now Jesus goes on, "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." In parables these others can see, or imagine, what is going on in the parable. For example, we can "see" in our imagination the sower spreading the seed on the ground. So, they can see what is going on, yet they don't "see" the underlying message or truth. Why not? They lack the faith in God. They don't believe in Jesus and are jaded in their understanding. They won't believe unless it is obvious. Do you want to lead people who demand that absolutely everything that you say must be proven first??? I wouldn't. God is no different.
Jesus goes on quoting Isaiah:
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’"
These people have closed off any faith in Jesus. We see this in other scripture, “If you are the Son of God, save yourself!”, asking questions to try to trap Him in some offense so they can accuse Him, and accuse Him of blasphemy. They have a starting point of belief that, this Jesus does not agree with us on the law, nor on the traditions we hold dear, so He cannot be the Messiah. No matter what Jesus says or does, miracle or not. Thus, God does not want these “know-it-alls” and hard hearted people to turn their hearts to God because it would only be temporary. They could never be trusted with salvation, for it would end just like the angels who revolted and needed to be cast out.
I think this is why faith is so important. Maybe we should capitalize Faith to distinguish between ordinary faith in whatever, and Faith in Jesus believing on His name. Believing Faith in God, like Abraham’s Faith, is what God is looking for, to deliver wisdom to and salvation for. That is why I said, “It seems to be, that, God does not want those who have no desire to follow the Word without proof.” Or in the positive vein, it seems to be, that, God only wants to give salvation to those who desire to follow the Word without proof. A good and faithful servant is what He is looking for.
I hope this was clear.
It appears the word of God is able to differentiate between those who want to know, and do the will of God to those who are just curious to what is being said, but have no plans on doing it. I think it is a matter of the heart, which gives understanding and not the mind that the Word of God works upon. It is with heart man believes, and understands unto salvation.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
If anyone wants to do the will of God, understanding will be given to him on what he must do.
Brother, there could never be any healing without faith. Healing does not just fall out of the sky onto people. Someone had to either pray for that person, or someone had bring that person to Jesus, or they had to come to where Jesus was to be healed. Sometime it was the faith of another person that brought forth healing. It makes no difference who it was it is, and will always be by faith that healing comes, even if it was just Jesus's faith out of his mercy and grace to heal a person. Lazarus had his sister to call for Jesus to come for her brother. No matter where you read in scripture you will find someones faith in operation. This is why which I have already posted in this thread........
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
I am so very blessed to see that you are a committed Christine an I deeply value your commitment to Christ. In many ways you are correct but so that we all understand the point here allow me to post..........
Acts 3:1-10...........
"Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk." And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them--walking, leaping, and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God. Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him".
What faith did the lame man have? He didn't know who Peter and John were. He wasn't asking for healing, he was looking for money. Yet without asking and without faith, he was healed. The accurate description is that faith came after he saw he was healed.
Matthew 12:9-13...............
"Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue. And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" --that they might accuse Him. Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other" (Matthew 12:9-13)
I find this one interesting because the man who was healed was a pawn in a play to trap Jesus. He wasn't looking to be healed, he had come to the synagogue for worship. He never asked for his arm to be restored. The leaders and Jesus were having a disagreement and then Jesus simply asks him to extend his hand and never mentioned "faith" at all. Jesus didn't even say what he was about to do, and yet the man was healed in front of a large number of people stubbornly holding on to their unbelief.
2 Kings 13:20-21................
"Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet" (II Kings 13:20-21).
A man dies and as his friends take him to be buried, they see raiders approaching. Quickly they stuff the body in a nearby tomb, which just happens to be Elisha's. And when the body touched Elisha's bones, he was restored to life. No one was asking for a miracle. No one was looking for a miracle. Everyone's focus was on Moabites and their need to defend themselves. There was no faith involved by anyone in this situation, and yet faith came as a result of the situation.
It is always a blessing to speak with you and I do hope that you will realize that our differences come from the denominational positions that we do not share on this doctrinal issue.
That is wonderful that you say that. God bless you as you continue on if life. What you are doing is very hard to do and You are doing a wonderful job of it.
My dear brother........all I did was show that the words my sister posted are NOT the words she stated. No more and no less. I was not digging anymore or looking to prove a point. YOU read the verses for yourself and then tell me that they say the exact same thing. Once again, it appears to me that You are looking to me and my understanding as a reason to explain yours.
This is not about ME! I thank you for your compassion and love and your wanting to help me but please understand that you are barking up the wrong tree at a squirrel who is not there my brother.
At my advanced age Abdicate and in past experiences in life, I have seen a LOT of negative events.
I have seen my grandparents death, my parents death, my brother's death, 237 men's death under my command in war, more friends and associates than I can remember and one infant grandchild. I have no clue as to how many funerals I have done and none of them was positive. I take that back. At one funeral where the gospel was given, four men accepted Christ as their Saviour!!!
Not a single one of those events was good or positive BUT not a single one of them swayed my knowledge and understanding of my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We differ in our understanding and that is the way it is going to have to stand.
God bless you and again thanks for your concern.
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