New Zealand

rtm3039 said:
I a unsure anyone actually "hates" me. Some might be scared of me (well, of what do), but that is not hate. Someone has to watch over the masses to make sure everyone is playing by the rules. If not, both the system and the weak are taken advantage of.
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I think say in terms of police if you've had a bad experience with one cop it sort of tarnishes the rest. Also police do a lot of racial profiling and tend to lump people in same categories. So theres probably a fair amount of hostility on both sides, depends on who makes the rules. Sometimes rules aren't fair, or they are unclear or change all the time.

You may think you are being law-abiding, and then there's a clause you didn't know about. People amend rules and laws all the time, and often people don't know about the changes. I guess thats what keeps lawyers in business. Plus legalese isn't a language that most people speak.
 
I've been reading some more NZ history, normally I'm not interested as history tends to be dry and boring, but I am curious to know some of the background to the place I was born.

So I picked up this book From Tamaki-Makarau to Auckland by RCJ Stone.

Before Auckland was founded in 1841, Maori lived here, but it was different tribes and there was a fair amount of fighting between tribes. The tribes to the south didn't like the ones to the north, and as said, Maori had certain protocols and customs that if violated, had severe consequences, because a violation of any of these or a slight would mean utu (vengeance) and these were not forgotten even years later. To keep peace between tribes, what usually happened is women were given as wives. It was just men who waged wars. When men formed a taua (war party) they would storm a pa (fort) with spears and clubs and it would be hand to hand fighting. The winning party would then cook and eat the dead - yep Maori practised cannibalism.

However, with arrival of Pakeha Europeans, Maori started trading so they could get guns. When they got the guns, they could defeat other tribes with their superior firepower. For a time, the tribes that had more guns went around terrorising the ones that didn't have any...and would go attack them for some utu of times past. It wasn't until other tribes started trading and getting guns as well so that tribes were equally armed, that the wars started to peter out as by then most every warrior was dead.

This left what was then Tamaki - Makarau in a bit of a vaccuum, as Maori were afraid to settle here with the constant threat of war. Previously it had been shared and populated with many tribes, with abundant gardens and fishing grounds, but by the time Europeans came it was fairly deserted, most having fled from the Nga Puhi tribe that had many guns and were on a vendetta/rampage with the fearsome Hone Heke.

It was then that those remaining traded some land with the pakeha, because to have a Pakeha meant access to guns, boats, nails etc. A huge parcel was negotiated in what is now the boundary between Auckland and Waikato, called Franklin, which meant there was now a Pakeha buffer zone between warring tribes.

However it wasn't the trade in guns and getting tribes equally armed that would bring about peace. Or marriage between tribes. Or even the treaty. It was Maori hunger for something else --books.

Yes Maori wanted to learn how to read and write, and this was where the missionaries came in and started schools. And it was here, Maori first heard and learned the gospel
 
Musicmaster said:
Like all the rest of the world, there's lots of 'zeal' for evil, a 'zeal' that's not at all new under this sun.
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er

'Zea' was dutch for 'sea' it doesn't mean evil or anything like that.
I guess you don't know much about my land. How about go back and read the posts from the beginning to this one and you'll learn more than what you know now.
 
Lanolin said:
er

'Zea' was dutch for 'sea' it doesn't mean evil or anything like that.
I guess you don't know much about my land. How about go back and read the posts from the beginning to this one and you'll learn more than what you know now.
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I didn't say 'zeal' meant evil, Lanolin, and I didn't say that 'zea' meant evil. The ZEAL I talked about is for evil, which is the REAL pandemic.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I didn't say 'zeal' meant evil, Lanolin, and I didn't say that 'zea' meant evil. The ZEAL I talked about is for evil, which is the REAL pandemic.

MM
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that has got nothing to do with the topic MM
Sorry. Can you have the courtesy to stick to topics in threads please. It makes it easier for everyone reading. Thank you.
 
I have read up to the point of the Treaty of Waitangi signed in February 1840 by over 100 chiefs.
As previously said, Maori weren't all clear on what they were signing and it could be interpreted different ways. But what became clear was that later the promises of protection for the Maori by the Crown didn't happen and some were right to be apprehensive that their land might be taken over.

Some of the problem started when the capital of the colony, initially was at Russell, then known as 'the hellhole of the Pacific' Kororareka for its prostitution, drinking, and general debauchery by European whalers and sealers who traded with Maori.

Captain Hobson then Governer General decided to deal with Ngati Whatua tribe to secure a portion of land in Tamaki-makau-rau (Land of 100 lovers) which they were willing to sell - having a Pakeha live there meant protection for this tribe from maurading tribes to the North as then they could also have access to guns. This triangle of land on the shores of the Waitemata became the new capital for the colony, and the deed signed for goods and ready supply of trade to Maori. Things like blankets, trousers, bags of sugar, hatchets, nails, etc. It was named Auckland after Lord Auckland, Hobson's benefactor.

It is interesting that the South Island, was also claimed for the British Crown as it was claimed to have been 'discovered' by the Brits and also part of the possession or protection of the treaty even though few Maori lived there (it was too cold).

However the British govt was quite parsimonious in their capital funding for the new colony...everything had to be done on a shoestring. This had a knock on effect for Maori in that the new immigrant settlers needed so much more than they had to trade, and this soon began encroaching on Maori resources.
 
The book ended there but this was when the land wars happened and they started in the Waikato as mentioned, Maori were in alliance with Pakeha against other tribes that were also obtaining muskets/guns from other Pakeha, but in Auckland, the Ngati Whatua tribe now had the Crown and they figured they had the entire British army on their side! Barracks were built near the shore and recruits into East Auckland to defend the new settlement of Auckland, but also to supply troops to take on the Waikato who were seen in rebellion to the Queen when they made their own King.

So the Brits thought well, they are now rebels and defying the Crown so let's invade...and fighting ensued.
In the end the Maori tribes there surrendered and on confiscated land that's where the town of Hamilton was built, by the Waikato militia near the abandoned Maori village Kirkiriroa and it later became the centre for the dairy industry. It was named after a British officers killed in one of the battles at Gate Pa, Tauranga.


It's a bit exhausting reading about it, but one thing to remember is that Maori were not one unified people, they had many tribes and they were also fighting each other. Once kumara harvesting season was over there was plenty of time to prepare war parties to go on raids and fighting was just a regular thing between tribes over slights or needing more land. The famous haka is a victory dance and tells the story of a chief hiding in a kumara pit and escaping from his enemies, and then coming out alive.

Today the haka is not performed as war dance and the only battles the Maori have with pakeha are in the land courts, in parliament, and..on the rugby field!

I guess next question is what happened to Maori after their land got taken. Did they resist? Did they convert? Did they assimilate? They did all these things and more.
 
In NZ we are celebrating our own Maori New Year called Matariki

Since we are in the southern hemisphere the seasons are the opposite to those in the north. The new planting season begins after our winter solstice when Matariki (the Pleaides, or seven sister) star cluster appears in the morning sky.

We had out first ever national holiday for Matariki on June 24 this year :)

Time to get the kumara garden ready...
 
Ok after the land wars the Maori retreated and went back to their ancestral lands that were somewhat diminished after they were 'won' or 'confiscated' by the Brits, or sold off. But that meant their economic base was ruined.

The forests were chopped down to build houses for the colonials.
The rivers were dammed for hydropower
The best fields for growing kumara became dairy farms
The hilly scrubland became pastures for sheep farmers
For a time, flax was grown for export to make ropes, but advances in technology rendered that redundant
The whalers and sealers depleted most of the marine life in the sea

Maori still lived in Pa or Kainga (villages) but their way of life was disrupted. The Brits bought in diseases they had no immunity to, like colds and flu, and they lived in damp unsuitable low lands that gave rise to TB, asthma, pneumonia.

Some Maori turned to their natural wonders like in Rotorua which was developed as a tourist 'spa' town for rich Aucklanders. They became tour guides, and hosted kapa haka dances.

Others learned how to farm sheep, for meat and wool.

Maori decided they better join the Brits and learn English and how to get on in the Pakeha world. So they gave up their language and went to English speaking schools, and many moved to the cities in hopes of finding new jobs and make a living in the new Pakeha dominated economy. But Maori, cut off from their tribal lands, Maori and whanau (family) as well as their own language, found it hard to adjust to the new culture. Before, they had no need of money, now they had rents to pay, or maybe even mortgages. They had bills and clothes and food to shop for. They had to live in isolated pockets of housing where everyone was on their own, and didn't share in the wider community anymore. Some pakeha wouldn't rent homes to Maori.

Many got frustrated, they came home from a World War they fought on behalf of the Brits, in the Maori Battalion, but had no reward after that. They couldn't articulate what they were missing in a new tongue that didn't have the words and concepts they were used to. Alcohol found its easy target.
 
Lanolin said:
Ok after the land wars the Maori retreated and went back to their ancestral lands that were somewhat diminished after they were 'won' or 'confiscated' by the Brits, or sold off. But that meant their economic base was ruined.
The forests were chopped down to build houses for the colonials. The rivers were dammed for hydropower The best fields for growing kumara became dairy farms The hilly scrubland became pastures for sheep farmers For a time, flax was grown for export to make ropes, but advances in technology rendered that redundant The whalers and sealers depleted most of the marine life in the sea Maori still lived in Pa or Kainga (villages) but their way of life was disrupted. The Brits bought in diseases they had no immunity to, like colds and flu, and they lived in damp unsuitable low lands that gave rise to TB, asthma, pneumonia.
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Hello Lanolin;

Your New Zealand thread is very interesting. The Maori are the indigenous, first people or very early inhabitants of NZ. After WWII the New Zealanders began developing the country and but the Maori were, for a lack of better word, put aside.

Today NZ has a healthy trade partnership around the world in export. But during the development NZ didn't seem to help enough especially with health treatment to the Maori and in 2022 they have a higher COVID than most New Zealanders.
 
Well Maori tend to have bigger families and now live in more crowded conditions than other groups, because whanau (family ties) are so very important in their culture, it is tribal based after all.
The other thing is, they have their own medicinal practices called Rongoa (herbal medicine) and so don't always trust Western medicine for things. Western medicine is expensive, whereas with herbal medicine and holistic practices, its free, though people need to go to a special tohunga (priest or healer) to obtain this - they know where and when to harvest the herbs needed.

Another thing is if you do have to go to hospital and isolate, that is very hard as maori do things as families they don't really do the whole 'me myself and I' kind of thinking. If you perform a kapa haka, you are going to do that as a part of a group. You are not going to draw attention to yourself. When you play rugby, it's part of a team. Only the chiefs of each tribe have the mana (prestige). If you live out in a rural area as many Maori still do, hospitals and services are very far away, they might not speak te reo, so, if instructing people to do things, they might not totally understand the meaning behind it.

Everything in Maori culture runs on tikanga (or custom, protocol) so everything has its place in the world, every action is sacred or profane, they always pray or chant karakia before doing things. I guess some people see it as superstitious, but that is the way they understand the world, in far more spiritual terms than an average Pakeha would, even Pakeha Christians.

One thing they had to stop was the practice of hongi (nose rubbing) and also, covid restrictions affected tangi (funeral gatherings) which traditionally would have lasted at least 3 days.
 
I visited NZ in '05, went to Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. Took the ferry to Rangatoto and the train down the center of both islands. It was a beautiful trip. I was quite sad when the earthquake a while back destroyed the church ceiling in Christchurch square.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I visited NZ in '05, went to Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. Took the ferry to Rangatoto and the train down the center of both islands. It was a beautiful trip. I was quite sad when the earthquake a while back destroyed the church ceiling in Christchurch square.
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Hello LearningToLetGo;

That's great that you got to visit New Zealand. When you say the center of both islands, did you mean Stewart Island?

Thank you for sharing, brother.
 
bobinfaith said:
When you say the center of both islands, did you mean Stewart Island?
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There is a train that goes from Auckland to Wellington, and another that goes from the northern tip of the South Island to Christchurch and beyond.

www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz

Northern Explorer Train

Travel in scenic style on our Northern Explorer Auckland to Wellington train, stopping at Hamilton, Tongariro National Park, Ohakune and Palmerston North
www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz

It's an old train, goes slowly and has epic views of the countryside.
 
The centre of the North Island is Lake Taupo
I'd say the centre of the South Island is Mt Cook.
Stewart Island is way down the bottom.

If you are meaning the centre or capital of both islands, it's Wellington, which is on the southern tip of the North Island, so it's kind of in the middle.

However what people call the 'Heartland' they usually mean like a country sheep station, anywhere in NZ. Or the smaller towns that service farms.
 
I have been on both trains, the Northern Explorer and the Tranz Alpine.
Both worth going on , the Northern Explorer has the famous Raurimu spiral in which it spirals around because the North Island is very hilly and they train can't go straight up steep gradients.

The Tranz Alpine goes across the Southern Alps from the east to the west coast and goes through Arthurs Pass in the mountains.

Nowadays rail is a bit of a backwater since flight has overtaken holiday travelling. So its probably more expensive and takes longer but still an easy way to travel and see the scenery without having to worry about navigating NZ roads which can actually be quite hazardous. Narrow, hilly people drive fast and on the LEFT and theres always a big holiday road toll unfortunately because of drunk drivers or tired drivers.
 
Well you would probably run away too if a thousand tonne noisy beast came barrelling through your fields at 100km an hour carrying coal and timber and nothing tasty to eat.
 
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