NT/OT

Yes. I would offer natural man cannot receive the signified understanding hid in parables. Spiritual words or words of faith. . . from faith the unseen understanding to faith . Also called face to face.. the understanding of faith .

The whole period of Kings in Israel the (abomination of desolation). It is understood as a parable or figure . The Holy Spirit using parables to teach us how to walk after the unseen understanding of God.

Without parables the signified tongue of God the Holy Spirit spoke not. I would think in lieu of that commandment or hermeneutic prescriptions needed to rightly divide the parables we should search the literal historical and perhaps find the anointed spiritual understanding or teaching.

Signifying using the temporal things seen mixing them with the unseen eternal.

The work of reformation restoring the government of God to before there were kings, the pagan foundation.

Hebrew 9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

1 Peter 1: 9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Through the understanding of parables 1 Peter would seem to indicate parables (shadows) do teach us as the Holy Spirit works in us to both will and perform the power of his good pleasure . We look back by faith as it is written they looked ahead to the unseen gospel understanding. .
Turning everything into a parable can be a dangerous practice. Jesus spoke in parables to hide plain truths not reveal them.

Matthew 13:34-35 (NASB) All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

Mark 4:11 (KJV) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Matthew 13:13 (KJV) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Before their rejecting His teaching, (Mt12:25-12:50) Jesus did not use parables (e.g. Sermon on the Mount). But started using them in Mt 13 to HIDE kingdom truths.

Matthew 13:13-16 (KJV) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
 
Yes but can you see why that was? God was literally walking with man, talking with him, sitting and teaching him - and they recorded it all.
Yes and they recorded it as God moved in them acording to his will . . .scripture as it is writen with it representing the faith of Christ that does work in mankind . The witness follows the will. let there be light and the presennce of God's glory appeared , and it was very good. Good the seal of God's approval .
 
Because the New Covenant has come upon us and explains more fully God's Kingdom (the now) to His people, which was outlined for us by the prophets of old, and which we needed to understand fully from the Word of God (reminds me of the Berean verse in Acts 17:11, searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying is true).

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

It took me about 1 year to work out a basic systematic theology as a new Christian from Scripture, because Scripture interprets Scripture and thus becomes expository, so this automatically takes you into a systematic theology quite naturally.

I actually read systematic theology books after that in order to learn how to best explain what I knew, because our elders have this all worked out communicatively.. which I think is pretty cool.

Helps to explain better, I think. But then I was somehow naturally drawn to systematic theology - so I could just be weird :rolleyes:.

But I do honestly think the Word just leads us into that direction, as you also seem to see.

Agreed!

The Old Test. is a "Shadow" of what was coming.......Messiah.

He is seen in every book of the Old Test. and if you miss Him.....read it again!

The New Test. is the fact of His coming and His name being Jesus the Christ!

Jesus the Christ is also seen and is the focus of every book of the New Test.
 
Yes. I would offer natural man cannot receive the signified understanding hid in parables. Spiritual words or words of faith. . . from faith the unseen understanding to faith . Also called face to face.. the understanding of faith .

The whole period of Kings in Israel the (abomination of desolation). It is understood as a parable or figure . The Holy Spirit using parables to teach us how to walk after the unseen understanding of God.

Without parables the signified tongue of God the Holy Spirit spoke not. I would think in lieu of that commandment or hermeneutic prescriptions needed to rightly divide the parables we should search the literal historical and perhaps find the anointed spiritual understanding or teaching.

Signifying using the temporal things seen mixing them with the unseen eternal.

The work of reformation restoring the government of God to before there were kings, the pagan foundation.

Hebrew 9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

1 Peter 1: 9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Through the understanding of parables 1 Peter would seem to indicate parables (shadows) do teach us as the Holy Spirit works in us to both will and perform the power of his good pleasure . We look back by faith as it is written they looked ahead to the unseen gospel understanding.

Gari.......All of Scripture is NOT Parabels my friend.

Many Christians believe that Jesus taught in parables to make His message clear, but that is not biblical. Even His disciples were in the dark and did not understand. Repeatedly, they asked Jesus to explain the parables to them.

Mark 4:10-13 ........
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" 13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?


The shocking truth is that Jesus hid the meaning of His teachings from the masses. The word Parable (Parabole in Greek: #3850 in Strong’s Concordance) means a similitude or (symbolically) fictitious narrative that conveyed a moral truth. The word Proverb (Paroimia in Greek: #3942 in Strong’s Concordance) means essentially the same thing – a fictitious illustration.

But even the disciples often did not understand. Jesus taught His own disciples in private and told them:

John 16:25.........
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."

By Jesus’ own admission, He didn’t teach or speak to even His own apostles “plainly.” But He promised that the time would come when He would no longer speak in proverbs but would speak plainly.​
The shocking truth is that Jesus hid the meaning of His teachings from the masses. The word Parable (Parabole in Greek: #3850 in Strong’s Concordance) means a similitude or (symbolically) fictitious narrative that conveyed a moral truth. The word Proverb (Paroimia in Greek: #3942 in Strong’s Concordance) means essentially the same thing – a fictitious illustration.

But even the disciples often did not understand. Jesus taught His own disciples in private and told them:

“These things have I spoken unto you in PROVERBS: but the time comes when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you."​
By Jesus’ own admission, He didn’t teach or speak to even His own apostles “plainly.” But He promised that the time would come when He would no longer speak in proverbs but would speak plainly.
 
But He promised that the time would come when He would no longer speak in proverbs but would speak plainly.

I would've agreed with you except this. He didn't say "speak" plainly - He said "show" them.. This sentence involves action, such as the Resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit... In that manner is what led everything to become absolutely plain.

How much different did Scriptures look to you between your unsaved state and then after you were saved?

For even though Scripture helped lead me to becoming saved, reading Scriptures after I was saved was still an eye opening experience; it made complete sense then, in ways I never would've dreamed possible.

But there it was. It's like the difference between knowing, and knowing... yet the words never changed.
 
I would've agreed with you except this. He didn't say "speak" plainly - He said "show" them.. This sentence involves action, such as the Resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit... In that manner is what led everything to become absolutely plain.

How much different did Scriptures look to you between your unsaved state and then after you were saved?

For even though Scripture helped lead me to becoming saved, reading Scriptures after I was saved was still an eye opening experience; it made complete sense then, in ways I never would've dreamed possible.

But there it was. It's like the difference between knowing, and knowing... yet the words never changed.

Nothing!

I never read the Bible when I was a lost person at all.
 
Nothing!

I never read the Bible when I was a lost person at all.

My husband had me read the relevant passages we were discussing when we were talking about Christ and God.

So I did read some... argued more though.. haha

But it definitely looked different after than before.

How did you become saved?
 
Nothing!

I never read the Bible when I was a lost person at all.

The word of God is not subject to time .A thousand years is as a day. Thousand years the signified language or tongue of God is used in parables. If you have believed or exercised (worked) faith to the end “salvation,” that exclusive faith came from the Bible it finds us and awakens ones soul ..
 
The shocking truth is that Jesus hid the meaning of His teachings from the masses. The word Parable (Parabole in Greek: #3850 in Strong’s Concordance) means a similitude or (symbolically) fictitious narrative that conveyed a moral truth. The word Proverb (Paroimia in Greek: #3942 in Strong’s Concordance) means essentially the same thing – a fictitious illustration.

But even the disciples often did not understand. Jesus taught His own disciples in private and told them:


By Jesus’ own admission, He didn’t teach or speak to even His own apostles “plainly.” But He promised that the time would come when He would no longer speak in proverbs but would speak plainly.

Parables in the book of Proverbs are fictitious moral teachings . Parables in general are non-fictitious. Historcally true as well as spiritual (hid)

They take the things seen the temporal. Like the body of Jesus the prophet, the head apostle as one sent to do the will of another to show the work of the unseen father working in Jesus and all beleivers . . a demonstration of two working as one. One seen the other eternal not seen mixing what the eyes see with the unseen will of the father ..the gospel understanding

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

It simply remains a parable with no spiritual unseen gospel understanding .

On one occasion in Luke 9 in a series of parablesadding one unsolved after another again hiding the gospel understanding Christ spoke through the Son of man, Jesus .That parble as to its understanding was hid from them alone to teach us how to walk by the faith of Christ that works in us and not after what the eys see .

Because they did not understand the parable they must of thought Jesus went off the deep end and they to a new vote of who would be the greatest alpha Dog

They did not mix faith and therefore did not enter the rest of being yoked with Christ who does make the burden lighter . At the end of the matter (Luke 9:55) Jesus rebuked the apostles and informed them they knew not what manner of spirit they were of. Nothing fictitious about that work of faith , the understanding of the parable

So yes not plainly literally but signified the hidden manna
 
Parables in the book of Proverbs are fictitious moral teachings . Parables in general are non-fictitious. Historcally true as well as spiritual (hid)

They take the things seen the temporal. Like the body of Jesus the prophet, the head apostle as one sent to do the will of another to show the work of the unseen father working in Jesus and all beleivers . . a demonstration of two working as one. One seen the other eternal not seen mixing what the eyes see with the unseen will of the father ..the gospel understanding

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

It simply remains a parable with no spiritual unseen gospel understanding .

On one occasion in Luke 9 in a series of parablesadding one unsolved after another again hiding the gospel understanding Christ spoke through the Son of man, Jesus .That parble as to its understanding was hid from them alone to teach us how to walk by the faith of Christ that works in us and not after what the eys see .

Because they did not understand the parable they must of thought Jesus went off the deep end and they to a new vote of who would be the greatest alpha Dog

They did not mix faith and therefore did not enter the rest of being yoked with Christ who does make the burden lighter . At the end of the matter (Luke 9:55) Jesus rebuked the apostles and informed them they knew not what manner of spirit they were of. Nothing fictitious about that work of faith , the understanding of the parable

So yes not plainly literally but signified the hidden manna

Yes......parabels are "stories" that try to teach a lesson in a simple way through an example.

However......you seem intent on makeing most every Scripture a Parabel and that is something I can not agree with.

Hebrews 4 is not a Parabel. Hebrews author did however use a short two-verse parable in Hebrews 6:7-8 to foster readers’ intuitive understanding of more difficult Christian doctrine identified in verses 4-6. He must have believed that an agricultural parable of the land producing crops versus thorns and thistles was an illustration that even the most urban reader of the first century would understand.

But not chapter #4.
 
The word of God is not subject to time .A thousand years is as a day. Thousand years the signified language or tongue of God is used in parables. If you have believed or exercised (worked) faith to the end “salvation,” that exclusive faith came from the Bible it finds us and awakens ones soul ..

I wish I knew what you were trying to say. I have no idea what you just said has to do with the comment I made.

Yes.....God stands out side of Time.
Yes.....a thousand days means no more that one day to God.
No.....Jesus spoke in Aramaic so that is the language God used.

Yes......My faith came from a Pastor who preached from the Word of God the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believed Him because He believed the Bible. AFTER I was saved.....then I began to read the Bible so that I did realize WHY I WAS SAVED.
 
I wish I knew what you were trying to say. I have no idea what you just said has to do with the comment I made.

Yes.....God stands out side of Time.
Yes.....a thousand days means no more that one day to God.
No.....Jesus spoke in Aramaic so that is the language God used.

Yes......My faith came from a Pastor who preached from the Word of God the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believed Him because He believed the Bible. AFTER I was saved.....then I began to read the Bible so that I did realize WHY I WAS SAVED.
Yes the preaching of the bible is the tool God uses to save people A person cannot know him without the book of His law .

Faith does not come by hearing Pastors they can plant the seed . Christ must cause the power to increase and give spirit life.
 
Yes......parabels are "stories" that try to teach a lesson in a simple way through an example.

However......you seem intent on makeing most every Scripture a Parabel and that is something I can not agree with.

Hebrews 4 is not a Parabel. Hebrews author did however use a short two-verse parable in Hebrews 6:7-8 to foster readers’ intuitive understanding of more difficult Christian doctrine identified in verses 4-6. He must have believed that an agricultural parable of the land producing crops versus thorns and thistles was an illustration that even the most urban reader of the first century would understand.

But not chapter #4.

It would seem he gave an agricultural parable of the land producing crops versus thorns and thistles in Hebrews 6. One heard the gospel and believed God the other trusting in thier own power (having none). They crucified Christ again and again .One demonstration as one parable was not enough.

I was referring to Hebrew 4 the principle or law of mixing of the things seen with the eternal things (faith) some did not mix and forfeited the gospel understanding. The work of Christ working in us is making our daily suffering lighter. called today (under the Sun) if they hear the voice and mix it with faith the the etenal understanding then we have entered that rest from our own part yoked with him .

The proper tool must be applied in order to rightly divide the parables a necessity.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The whole period of time there were Kings in Israel before the time of refomation the abomination of desolation is a parable using the signifed things seen. Historical true, hiding the unseen gospel understanding. Jesus’s whole life was a living parable. All of his actions as a apostle sent by the father were brought on powered by the will of the father not seen. Jesus like us had the the treasure of the power coming from the father in him but would never claim it was of him seen

Hebrew 6:7-8 is a different kind of parable teaching us that God will not forget the good works we offer towards the power of his name like all parables mixing the temporal things seen with the unseen eternal.

Hebrew 4”2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

No hearing of faith (Christ) no gospel .
 
Yes the preaching of the bible is the tool God uses to save people A person cannot know him without the book of His law .

Faith does not come by hearing Pastors they can plant the seed . Christ must cause the power to increase and give spirit life.

Romans 10:17......
"Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God".

When it is said that "faith cometh by hearing", it is not meant that all who hear actually believe, for that is not true; but that faith does not exist unless there is a message, or report, to be heard or believed. It cannot come otherwise than by such a message; in other words, unless there is something made known to be believed. And this shows us at once the importance of the message, and the fact that people are converted by the instrumentality of truth, and of truth only.

"And hearing" - And the report, or the message ( η ̔ἀκοὴ hē akoē), is by the Word of God; that is, the message is sent by the command of God. It is his word, sent by his direction, and therefore if withheld by him, those who did not believe could not be blamed.

Romans 10:14 .......
"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"
 
Romans 10:17......
"Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God".

When it is said that "faith cometh by hearing", it is not meant that all who hear actually believe, for that is not true; but that faith does not exist unless there is a message, or report, to be heard or believed. It cannot come otherwise than by such a message; in other words, unless there is something made known to be believed. And this shows us at once the importance of the message, and the fact that people are converted by the instrumentality of truth, and of truth only.

"And hearing" - And the report, or the message ( η ̔ἀκοὴ hē akoē), is by the Word of God; that is, the message is sent by the command of God. It is his word, sent by his direction, and therefore if withheld by him, those who did not believe could not be blamed.

Romans 10:14 .......
"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

Yes His faith as a work or called a labor of Love comes by hearing His voice. His understanding.

I would agree. How can we hear God not seen. Unless he does the first work as new creatures in us “let there be” empowering us to do so .It’s how beautiful are the feet shod with the gospel. The treasure we have in us not of us unless any boast in false pride.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
Why do you suppose there is so much doctrinal teaching in the NT (e.g. Rom 1-11, Gal 1-5, Eph 1-4, Heb 1-10 etc. etc.) almost reminding one of systematic theology in contrast to the OT which is mainly historical, poetical and Prophetic?
Ok gents let's try to refocus on the question laid out in the OP.
 
Systematic theology is using knowledge from different scriptures and forming a knowledge that is happening in a system of pre-thought by scripture itself.

If you use the books, and Read Romans 1 through 16 and leave it there. That book is concluded to the saints in Rome, and the faithful there. (There are most certainly aspects of spiritual lessons, and also teachings for us to understand the human nature and the natural aspect of man along with the spiritual aspect of man.)

It would be the same with any book.

To go back and say well this happens because of Jesus Christ saying this first -> then adding scripture references to whatever book and scriptures -> then this happens -> and so forth and so on it is a system of knowledge that happens to be systematic.

This probably doesn't help at all, but figured would comment on the case you are offering crossnote.

Looking at the book and searching the scriptures and trying to let God help you by the spirit of what is being said, along with context is a big huge boost in understanding because anyone can bring forth a single scripture.

An make a whole doctrine out of one scripture and say if you do not believe this well - you are not a Christian or whatever.

What are your thoughts about this?
 
Yes His faith as a work or called a labor of Love comes by hearing His voice. His understanding.

I would agree. How can we hear God not seen. Unless he does the first work as new creatures in us “let there be” empowering us to do so .It’s how beautiful are the feet shod with the gospel. The treasure we have in us not of us unless any boast in false pride.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We HEAR God as He speaks to us through His written Word.

God's special revelation of Himself in His Word is an incredible picture of His grace. We could not know God if He did not take the initiative to reveal Himself. He has taken such initiative, and He has done so through His Word. David uses several words to refer to God's Word – law, testimony, precepts, commandment, fear, and rules. With each reference to God's Word, David lists an accompanying characteristic – perfect, sure, right, pure, clean, enduring, true, and righteous. Finally, David lists effects of God's Word. It revives, makes wise, brings rejoicing, enlightens.

It is important to remember that God's Word is His revelation of Himself to us. As such, we do not worship the Bible, but rather the One who gave it. The reason the Bible is perfect, sure, right, pure, clean, enduring, and righteous is because God is.
 
In the O.T God's people were born into God's covenant with Abraham and although the Hebrew nation was to be a light for the world, the Jews considered themselves apart from humanity as a whole and did little proselytizing.

In the N.T. God's message was to be taken to those who were outside the Abrahamic covenant and would be unfamiliar with the history of God's providence and the O.T. spiritual law.

In the O.T believers were either at the the top of their society, or in captivity. When at the top, they were immersed in their own traditions which pointed back to Abraham. When they were in captivity, they were separate from upper society and looked toward the Redeemer.

N.T. believers encorporate all walks of life but do not necessarily have the spiritual underpinnings. Those that did come from a Jewish heritage needed to be taught how to apply it to a life serving a risen Savior.
 
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