This is an interesting area of discussion, as while do see today in the NC saved jews and gentiles are now Spiritual Israel as in the Church, the Lord still will have future dealings with nation israel as in the great tribulation times, preparing them to meet their coming God Jesus!
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There are a minority among those of us holding to Covenat theology. like myself, Spurgeon, and Boice who were premil still!
Doesn't the Bible teach us that saved Jews become members of the Church?
I would say the same thing just different fathers that make up the law of the fathers a hierarchy of men .I would liken it to the Pharisee with Sadducees that put aside they differences as if one man trying to make all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptural) without effect
I believe (and this is just me) that in eternity believing Jew and Gentile will form the 'One New Man'
Ephesians 2:14-15 (NASB) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
but in time and until then, God will be dealing with Israel i.e. chasten them in Jacob's Trouble (the G.T.)
Yes, that is what I posted, but once Jesus returns, he will be dealing with national Israel again!
I see the time of Jacobs troubles being the great tribulation!
OK!......I thought so! I agree brother.
It is my understanding that Jacobs Trouble IS the 7 year Tribulation and the last 3 and 1/2 years of those 7 is the "Great Tribulation.
That's what I meant. Sorry for the unclear wording.
No... Jews were always the church.
"The Greek word that is translated as church is ekklēsia and is used in the New Testament for a specific gathering of Christians, or for all believers together. The same word, ekklēsia, is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to translate the Hebrew term qāhāl, "assembly." It is used for Israel as they gathered together to appear before God or as a general reference to all of Israel."
The Church in the Old Testament - Westminster Seminary California
These various gatherings of God's covenant community, the visible church, look quite different throughout history.
www.wscal.edu
And now are Christians through the blood of Jesus in the New Covanent.
One group of people, not two. The assembly of believers in Covenant with God.
So you would hold that the believing Jews were born again? I take it that the Church (the Body of Christ), is comprised of born again believers.
Romans 16:25-26 ......No... Jews were always the church.
"The Greek word that is translated as church is ekklēsia and is used in the New Testament for a specific gathering of Christians, or for all believers together. The same word, ekklēsia, is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to translate the Hebrew term qāhāl, "assembly." It is used for Israel as they gathered together to appear before God or as a general reference to all of Israel."
The Church in the Old Testament - Westminster Seminary California
These various gatherings of God's covenant community, the visible church, look quite different throughout history.
And now are Christians through the blood of Jesus in the New Covanent.
One group of people, not two. The assembly of believers in Covenant with God.
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith".
The word translated “mystery” is the Greek word ..."μυστήριον." This unfortunate translation has confused most of Christendom. The word μυστήριον does not mean “mystery” as we think as in “strange,” “enigma,” “weird,” etc. It means a “secret”–something kept hidden, something previously unrevealed. Paul used the term to describe the body of doctrine the risen, ascended, glorified Lord revealed to him. God alone can keep a secret and He had kept these revelations hidden until He chose to disclose them. Paul called these doctrines “secrets” for that was what they were.
I would ask you to consider that the Jews could not be IN THE CHURCH because the "Church: did not exist at that time.
The promises made to Israel were made to ISRAEL not the church.
I think that everyone will agree that the church is made up of those who believe in the death of Jesus Christ, His resurrection and assention.
But, here is the KEY. There is NO mention made of believing in Jesus’ death and resurrection even after His resurrection.
Peter did not tell the Jews he addressed on the day of Pentecost to believe Jesus died for them and rose from the dead. He told them to repent and be baptized in Acts 2:38. Immediately after Paul was saved he too preached this message: Jesus was the Son of Godin Acts 9:20.
Paul did not begin to preach his gospel that Christ died for us and rose from the dead until after he returned from Arabia. Why not? Because God had not yet revealed it. The Lord Jesus Christ revelaed it to him personally and then Paul revealed to the world.
Revealed WHAT?? The Church!
Not until after Paul returned from his three years in Arabia did he preach the gospel. During that time the ascended Lord revealed to Paul the meaning of His death and resurrection and that the CHURCH would consist of all who placed their faith in Him as their Saviour, both Jew and Gentile then came to God on the same basis....Faith in Christ.
Parables (the signified or poetic tongue of God) as prophecy teach us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal. The eye witness confirms the unseen working; as a sign that follows one that had already believed. . . prior to seeing the end of the matter. . .
Eyewitnesses is defined as walking by sight .No sign. . no faith
The unbelieving Jews said show us a miracle and then we will believe. Therefore they sought after signs to wonder after never coming to the end eternal faith .The salvation of one soul .
The born again believer receives that from the very beginning the hearing of faith. . . Christ in us as Emanuel .
John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What "sign" shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
It can be viewed in other parables. After they believe they speak with the new tongue of the gospel it cast out the lies of the father of lies with prayer and supplication . And they shall recover. If we would take in the false gospel (deadly thing) as an sign and or wonders. . . the poison of serpents we will not be affected by those lies .
Mark 16: 17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This is completely wrong. When I said 'our faith is based on what was seen by eyewitnesses, not on parables, similes or metaphors,' I was referring to...
1 John 1:1-3 KJV
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
The link between the eternal and temporal is not parables but the Incarnation.
I am a Reformed Baptist, and to me the real Church founded up and started at Pentacost!No... Jews were always the church.
"The Greek word that is translated as church is ekklēsia and is used in the New Testament for a specific gathering of Christians, or for all believers together. The same word, ekklēsia, is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to translate the Hebrew term qāhāl, "assembly." It is used for Israel as they gathered together to appear before God or as a general reference to all of Israel."
The Church in the Old Testament - Westminster Seminary California
These various gatherings of God's covenant community, the visible church, look quite different throughout history.
And now are Christians through the blood of Jesus in the New Covanent.
One group of people, not two. The assembly of believers in Covenant with God.
Mysteries are made know through parables or called the hidden manna. The food of unfamiliarity .The atheist, faithless Jews in the wilderness longed for the familiar food of bondage to the god of this world signified by the pharoah when they were in Egypt .Food used to represent the will of God. The kind the disciple knew not of. . . hid in parables.
Because the time of reformation had come the mystery of kings in Israel an abomination of desolation ,Jesus declared it made with human hands desolate at the renting of the veil and never entered in again.
Not all Israel is born again Israel just as an outward Jew according to the flesh is eternally different than a inward Jew that does have the Spirit of Christ that works in all that believe. . being empower by the Father .
There were some outward Jews hoping their DNA would profit in the book of Revelation (the hidden manna) Revelation 2:17 The signified understanding of faith it revealed they tried to pass off the were inward Jews according to the unseen Spirit.
If any man has not the born again Spirit of Christ then the Bible informs us they are not of the church the bride of Christ in whom the father named Christian .a more befitting name to represent all the nation of the world, many lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God not seen the church.
Abel moved by grace or favor by God from within.. . preached the gospel to his faithless brother Cain .Cain took him out to the field and buried him under as in "out of sight out of mind". No faith coming from Christ (within .) The pagan foundation looking to what the eyes see and not mixing faith .Abel the first recorded apostle and martyr of the body of Christ the church.
We are provided with two witnesses that show the corrupted flesh of mankind profits for nothing.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
No riches coming from corrupted dying, powerless flesh .
I am still a Baptist and IMO, the real and ONLY church started at Pentecost!
Acts 19:5
When they heard this That is, the people to whom John preached, his hearers; when they heard of the Messiah, and that Jesus was he, and that it became them to believe in him: they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus;
This is completely wrong. When I said 'our faith is based on what was seen by eyewitnesses, not on parables, similes or metaphors,' I was referring to...
1 John 1:1-3 KJV
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The link between the eternal and temporal is not parables but the Incarnation.
I would think that it was a outward sign that followed the unseen work of the two. Jesus seen the temporal and the Father not seen the eternal.
The promised outward demonstration spoken of in Isaiah 53 of two working as one. A demonstration of the finished work of the lamb of God slain from the very foundation of this world.
When Jesus finished the demonstration .He said it is finished and of his own volition gave up the ghost. The time of reformation had come.
Two working together as one work of faith or mutual labor of love therefore creating a government of peace. Loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The Father in the greater position of power but not a greater God. God is one.
The Incarnation having to do with a fleshly one time promised demonstration of the Father and Son.
I would offer the literal understanding is written as historical and another understanding in a parable is given revealing the mysteries of faith . Using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal will of the Father that works in us, The treasure of His unseen power and glory in us not of us.We have no power of our own to rebuke lying spirits of error . . .our goal I would think is to walk by faith and not after flesh the temporal seen, we can being yoked with Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
If there is no mixing of faith (the unseen) using the temporal to give us the understanding of the mystery then I would offer it remains a parable with no eternal understanding. Historical according to the temporal, as valid history is true. But does not reveal the mysteries of faith as it is written according to the law of faith .
Incarnation the outward evidence promised as the understanding the lamb of God slain from the very foundation demonstrated in the new testement the restored, contuining to restore the peace of God' understanding . . the new order. . .
If no understanding .I would think it remains a mystery” in seeing they see not”and hearing not they hear not.. Parables it would seem reveal the gospel understanding. Both kinds of understandings are needed .Called mixing faith.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The law and the prophet’s as one witness of God (sola scriptura) it reveals Gods mind through the temporal things seen (prophets) teaching us how to walk by the power of faith that works from within. The power of God, not of the things seen the corrupted.
Romans Introduces the wrath of God who is not a man as us a creation to estabish we must mix faith in what we do see or hear. .
Roman1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen..
Kings in Israel as a law of men "I heard it through the grape vine" is the abomination of desolation .All kings as men who lord it over the faith of non venerable will be destroyed on the last day under the Sun
Again......I wish I knew what you were talking about.
There WILL BE TWO witnesses in the last days in the book of the Revelation.
Revelation 11:3–4.........
"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."
Their ministry will be the 1st 3 1/2 years or 1260 days of the Tribulation peroid.
Notice the literal words......."THEY WILL PROPHESY". That is future tense = has not yet taken place!!!!!
Notice also the literal word THEY = Masculine Pronoun which in the original Language literally means MEN.
TWO MEN will preach for 1260 days, during the 1st 1260 days of the coming Tribulation.