NT/OT

[crossnote]

The Incarnation having to do with a fleshly one time promised demonstration of the Father and Son.

Are you sure the Incarnation is a 'one time demonstration'?...

Revelation 5:6-7 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

I would offer the literal understanding is written as historical and another understanding in a parable is given revealing the mysteries of faith . Using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal will of the Father that works in us, The treasure of His unseen power and glory in us not of us.We have no power of our own to rebuke lying spirits of error . . .our goal I would think is to walk by faith and not after flesh the temporal seen, we can being yoked with Christ.

I would offer the meaning of the seen events are exposited by the clear and inspired writings of the Apostles bringing to light the meaning of the seen in words and wisdom of the unseen God.

If there is no mixing of faith (the unseen) using the temporal to give us the understanding of the mystery then I would offer it remains a parable with no eternal understanding. Historical according to the temporal, as valid history is true. But does not reveal the mysteries of faith as it is written according to the law of faith .

Again, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The context of that statement is in Romans 10 which is the preached Gospel. Without the Gospel, there will be no faith. The Gospel is an Incarnational event...

Romans 10:14-17 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Major]

I would think that it was a outward sign that followed the unseen work of the two. Jesus seen the temporal and the Father not seen the eternal.

The promised outward demonstration spoken of in Isaiah 53 of two working as one. A demonstration of the finished work of the lamb of God slain from the very foundation of this world.

When Jesus finished the demonstration .He said it is finished and of his own volition gave up the ghost. The time of reformation had come.

Two working together as one work of faith or mutual labor of love therefore creating a government of peace. Loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The Father in the greater position of power but not a greater God. God is one.

The Incarnation having to do with a fleshly one time promised demonstration of the Father and Son.

I would offer the literal understanding is written as historical and another understanding in a parable is given revealing the mysteries of faith . Using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal will of the Father that works in us, The treasure of His unseen power and glory in us not of us.We have no power of our own to rebuke lying spirits of error . . .our goal I would think is to walk by faith and not after flesh the temporal seen, we can being yoked with Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If there is no mixing of faith (the unseen) using the temporal to give us the understanding of the mystery then I would offer it remains a parable with no eternal understanding. Historical according to the temporal, as valid history is true. But does not reveal the mysteries of faith as it is written according to the law of faith .

Incarnation the outward evidence promised as the understanding the lamb of God slain from the very foundation demonstrated in the new testement the restored, contuining to restore the peace of God' understanding . . the new order. . .

If no understanding .I would think it remains a mystery” in seeing they see not”and hearing not they hear not.. Parables it would seem reveal the gospel understanding. Both kinds of understandings are needed .Called mixing faith.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The law and the prophet’s as one witness of God (sola scriptura) it reveals Gods mind through the temporal things seen (prophets) teaching us how to walk by the power of faith that works from within. The power of God, not of the things seen the corrupted.

Romans Introduces the wrath of God who is not a man as us a creation to estabish we must mix faith in what we do see or hear. .

Roman1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen..

Kings in Israel as a law of men "I heard it through the grape vine" is the abomination of desolation .All kings as men who lord it over the faith of non venerable will be destroyed on the last day under the Sun

I am going to spend some time with you Gari in an effort to be understanding and corrective as well as correctly teaching.

The CONTEXT of this is from our brother @crosnote who said...........post #75.......
"1 John 1:1-3 KJV
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The link between the eternal and temporal is not parables but the Incarnation."
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
THEN YOU SAID in post #79.........
I would think that it was a outward sign that followed the unseen work of the two. Jesus seen the temporal and the Father not seen the eternal.

WHAT WAS SAID IN 1 JOHN 1:1-3 IS NOT A SIGN NEITHER IS IT A PARABEL. IT IS A CLEAR DOCTRINAL STATEMENT THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, GOD IN THE FLESH!

JESUS WAS NOT TEMPRAL BUT WAS IN FACT ETERNAL PAST AS WELL AS THE FUTURE BECAUSE HE IS GOD AND JOHN SAID WHAT HE SAW AND TOUCHED!
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Then you said..............
"The promised outward demonstration spoken of in Isaiah 53 of two working as one."

Again, I have NO idea what that means.

But Isaiah 53:2 says that there will be NO outward DEMONSTRATION of anything dosen't it????.....
"For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him."

Comeliness Strong’s #1921 – hâdar, haw-dar’; a primitive root; to swell up (literally or figuratively, active or passive); by implication, to favor or honour, be high or proud:—countenance, crooked place, glorious, honour, put forth.

What does that mean???? NO DEMONSTRATION!!!

He didn’t come with trumpet blowing or a public relations team handing out fliers. He didn’t demand notice in any way. He came humbly with a heart to serve and to show us the Father.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
Then you said......
"When Jesus finished the demonstration .He said it is finished and of his own volition gave up the ghost. The time of reformation had come."

YES and NO.

The crusifixtion was indeed a demonstration of the LOVE of God for all men. It was LOVE that kept Jesus on the cross. When He said IT IS FINISHED------that was not the end of the demonstration, IT WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION.

That was NOT THE REFORMATION but instead was the REDEMPTION for humanity! The Reformation started in 1517 publication of Martin Luther’s “95 Theses.”
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Then you said.............
"Two working together as one work of faith or mutual labor of love therefore creating a government of peace. Loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The Father in the greater position of power but not a greater God. God is one."

That is incorrect Garie!
The Bible truth is that there are 3 (THREE) working together as ONE = Trinity!

God is 3 in ONE.

1 Holy Spirit + 1 Son + Father = ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS. Co-equal, co-eternal, co-effective!

Colossians 2:9........
"For in Him (Christ) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form".

1 John 5:7.........
"For there are three that testify".
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
Then you said............
If no understanding .I would think it remains a mystery” in seeing they see not”and hearing not they hear not.. Parables it would seem reveal the gospel understanding. Both kinds of understandings are needed .Called mixing faith.

That is incorrect as there is much understanding found in the Word of God. There is NO MYSTERY.

Parables ARE NOT NEEDED today as we have the completed Word of God to Read and UNDERSTAND. Parables were used by Christ to explain a spiritual truth that was hard for men THEN to grasp.

Jesus is NOT a mystery but a FACT! He is God, both God and Man! The "MYSTERY" Paul referred to was that the pictures of Christ in the Old Test. came fulfilled with Christ in the New Test. and what God promised He delivered. The MYSTERY then was solved when God said that the Jew and the Gentile had to now come to HIM by simply faith in Christ and His resurrection.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

Then you said.............
Romans Introduces the wrath of God who is not a man as us a creation to estabish we must mix faith in what we do see or hear. .

God love ya my friend but that is not correct either. Romans is the book of the road on how to be SAVED!!!

Paul does not see the wrath of God as being incompatible with the Gospel's message. While many people wish to separate grace from judgment, Calvary from hell, love from wrath Paul shows us that it cannot be done. Yes, the Gospel is good news but it is only good news for those who receive it. For those that disregard its saving power the Gospel reveals the wrath and judgment of God directed toward all sin. The Gospel also reveals sinful attitudes and behaviors, as Paul will go on to list very specifically (vv. 21-32).

God's love is showered on those who believe, but the WRATH of God is the LAKE OF FIRE to those who reject Christ where they will be tormented forever and forever.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

Then you said...............
"Kings in Israel as a law of men "I heard it through the grape vine" is the abomination of desolation .All kings as men who lord it over the faith of non venerable will be destroyed on the last day under the Sun".

No sir, that is also Biblically incorrect.

The "Abomination of Desolation is 1st mentioned in Daniel 12:11..........
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days"

That happened in Jerusalem 168 during the rule of the eighth Seleucid king, Antiochus IV. He is better known in history as Antiochus Epiphanes.
He claimed to be God and He desiccated the temple by pouring pigs blood on the alter.

Matthew 24:13-14 God Himself said......................
“‘Therefore when you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place’ (whoever reads, let him understand), ‘then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains’” (verses 15-16).

So here we see another fulfillment of the “abomination of desolation” to occur in the future 7 Year Tribulation Period. This will actually be the Mid-point of the 7 year period and the then Anti-Christ will stand in the Temple and declare that he is God.

We should also note that Daniel 12:11, which mentions this abomination of desolation being set up, also states that the daily sacrifices will be taken away. Since the Jews are not currently offering any daily sacrifices in Jerusalem, and there is NO Temple, this means that daily sacrifices will be reestablished at some point in the future in a re-built Temple For sacrifices to be offered, an altar must be constructed.

God bless you and I do hope that these BIBLE facts and Scriptures will help you my friend.

 

[Chris1]

I am a Reformed Baptist, and to me the real Church founded up and started at Pentacost!

I think Abraham was saved by faith in what was to him, unseen, and to us, seen or revealed.

The law never justified anyone, only by Grace through faith is anyone or has anyone ever been saved.

I think "the church" is the same yesterday as today, it is only revealed/seen fully in the Life, death and resurrection of Christ after Pentecost and today, Gentiles are added to her number by faith in what has now been revealed, but prior to Christ remained a mystery. Both epochs were the same however, the law can't justify. Only Grace through faith justifies man.

I think this is why I have a difficult time understanding people because Scripture is so clear, and I can't figure out why everyone doesn't see the same..

 

[Garee]

I think Abraham was saved by faith in what was to him, unseen, and to us, seen or revealed.

The law never justified anyone, only by Grace through faith is anyone or has anyone ever been saved.

I think "the church" is the same yesterday as today, it is only revealed/seen fully in the Life, death and resurrection of Christ after Pentecost and today, Gentiles are added to her number by faith in what has now been revealed, but prior to Christ remained a mystery. Both epochs were the same however, the law can't justify. Only Grace through faith justifies man.

I think this is why I have a difficult time understanding people because Scripture is so clear, and I can't figure out why everyone doesn't see the same..

I would suggest he was saved by the faith of Christ or also called Christ's labor of love it worked in Abraham to both reveal the will and empower Abraham to do it .

In that way two laws working toghther as one perfect law . Two by two seems to represent the gospel Can't have one without the other just like the father and son .T he writen law kills declaring all men guilty (the just .) And the unseen work, the law of faith empowering the beleiver yoked with Christ. . the justfier .

The just and justifier of our new born again faith .the two laws Seperated it become to no effect. two dead laws .. no faith

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[crossnote]

I think this is why I have a difficult time understanding people because Scripture is so clear, and I can't figure out why everyone doesn't see the same..

Yes, I think it is clear. Jesus did say "I WILL build my Church", not I have been building my Church...

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Mat 16:18)

 

[YeshuaFan]

I think Abraham was saved by faith in what was to him, unseen, and to us, seen or revealed.

The law never justified anyone, only by Grace through faith is anyone or has anyone ever been saved.

I think "the church" is the same yesterday as today, it is only revealed/seen fully in the Life, death and resurrection of Christ after Pentecost and today, Gentiles are added to her number by faith in what has now been revealed, but prior to Christ remained a mystery. Both epochs were the same however, the law can't justify. Only Grace through faith justifies man.

I think this is why I have a difficult time understanding people because Scripture is so clear, and I can't figure out why everyone doesn't see the same..

Just do not see the assembly of Israel as being the Church in the OT!

Agreed both OT/NT saved same way!

 

[Major]

I would suggest he was saved by the faith of Christ or also called Christ's labor of love it worked in Abraham to both reveal the will and empower Abraham to do it .

In that way two laws working toghther as one perfect law . Two by two seems to represent the gospel Can't have one without the other just like the father and son .T he writen law kills declaring all men guilty (the just .) And the unseen work, the law of faith empowering the beleiver yoked with Christ. . the justfier .

The just and justifier of our new born again faith .the two laws Seperated it become to no effect. two dead laws .. no faith

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I appreciate the suggestion Gari must I have to reject it.

Abraham had no knowledge of the church, Jesus Christ, the prophets, Moses or the Ten Commandments but he was saved through faith in God's promises. Abram had no real knowledge of what the promises of God entailed through Jesus Christ, but he chose to believe in God's promises.

Shall we consider what the Word of God actually says about this??????

Genesis 12:1-4 The LORD had said to Abram.........
"Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran."

We can position our minds at these verses and see all the way to the cross with an understanding of what these promises entailed. However, historically Abraham was standing at Genesis 12, long before Genesis was even written with no knowledge of the rest of the story revealed in Genesis; and absolutely no knowledge of the 66 books of the Bible yet to be revealed. But he chose to step out upon God’s promises although he couldn’t see what tomorrow would bring.

Romans 3:26 that you used actually has nothing to do with Abraham at all.

Gari........It is important not to focus so exclusively on one particular passage that you are kept from a properly developed understanding of the consistent teaching of sacred Scripture as a whole. For example, the Old Testament book of Leviticus would be unsolvable without the New Testament book of Hebrews and the Old Testament book of the prophet Isaiah would be limited in its revelation without the four Gospels.

Heresies usually begin from an exaggerated interpretation of one passage of Scripture without looking at Scripture as a whole.

 

[Major]

I think Abraham was saved by faith in what was to him, unseen, and to us, seen or revealed.

The law never justified anyone, only by Grace through faith is anyone or has anyone ever been saved.

I think "the church" is the same yesterday as today, it is only revealed/seen fully in the Life, death and resurrection of Christ after Pentecost and today, Gentiles are added to her number by faith in what has now been revealed, but prior to Christ remained a mystery. Both epochs were the same however, the law can't justify. Only Grace through faith justifies man.

I think this is why I have a difficult time understanding people because Scripture is so clear, and I can't figure out why everyone doesn't see the same..

Because of Romans 14:5.......
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Now, speaking ONLY for me, I think that there is more of a misunderstanding than something not seen than anything else.

Allow me to take a stab at this separation of thinking and see if I can make sense for everyone. If you do not accept this or like this......
I will still be your best friend!!!!!!

One of the classes taught at many Seminaries is titled the "Ancient Church."

I think that everyone will say and agree that the church is created by the gospel. So then the question must be...............
When was the gospel first announced? Stay with me now, sit up, put down the coffee!!!

Genesis 3:15 says...........
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

So then, when, after the fall, God promised a Messiah who would crush the serpent's head.

Now lets read Genesis 4:26........
"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

After Seth, who replaced Able, “then people began to call on the name of the Lord.” From that time on, there was a bunch of people that grew into a large people, as God promised Abraham, he would be the father of many. And then that people became a nation at Mount Sinai.
We know that this nation was made up of the JEWISH people.

Violating the terms of that covenant that they swore before God, God promised a new covenant of pure promise in Jesus Christ through the prophets. But, Paul tells us, salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

It seems that God has always had a called out group of people in both testaments. What we call them is the point of contention..........
NATION and CHURCH.

In 1st Peter 2:9 we see.........
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"

Some believe that Peter was speaking to the Jews of the “Dispersion” (Diaspora), but not so. He was speaking to all of those Christians, both Jewish and gentile Christians, who fled persecution and scattered into the various places especially mentioned in 1 Peter 1:1, that is: Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia

Note this important fact......Peter quoted from Ex. 19:5,6; Deut. 7:6; Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, and were first applied to the nation of Israel, who were chosen at the time to be a special possession, a holy people, a kingdom of priests.

But, with the death of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the Christian congregation, these verses no longer applied to “fleshly Israel” but instead to “spiritual Israel,” which is also referred to as “the Israel of God,” made up of both Jews and gentiles, who made up the early Christian congregation.

The NATION OF ISRAEL THEN WAS MADE UP OF JEWS who were God's chosen possession, a "Royal Priesthood".

The CHURCH which is made up of Gentiles as well as Jews today, is called now also a “chosen nation,” “a royal priesthood.”

These are titles that were attributed to Israel in the Old Testament.
They also seen today in the New Test.

Revelation 5:9 we see............
"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Christ purchased with his blood, people from every tribe, and tongue, and people, a nation to be a kingdom of priests for our God.

So, throughout the New Testament, the titles applied to Israel are now applied to the church today.

Now stop for a moment. That in no way means that the Church has REPLACED Israel and the promises made to Abraham are not given to the church NO, -NO-NO!

The unfulfilled promises made by God to Israel will be fulfilled in the coming future as according to the Scriptures, God is not finished with Israel.

Roman 11:11
“So I ask, did they [speaking of the Jewish people as a whole] stumble in order that they might fall? GOD FORBID"!

 

[Garee]

I appreciate the suggestion Gari must I have to reject it.

Abraham had no knowledge of the church, Jesus Christ, the prophets, Moses or the Ten Commandments but he was saved through faith in God's promises. Abram had no real knowledge of what the promises of God entailed through Jesus Christ, but he chose to believe in God's promises.

Shall we consider what the Word of God actually says about this??????

Genesis 12:1-4 The LORD had said to Abram.........
"Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran."

We can position our minds at these verses and see all the way to the cross with an understanding of what these promises entailed. However, historically Abraham was standing at Genesis 12, long before Genesis was even written with no knowledge of the rest of the story revealed in Genesis; and absolutely no knowledge of the 66 books of the Bible yet to be revealed. But he chose to step out upon God’s promises although he couldn’t see what tomorrow would bring.

Romans 3:26 that you used actually has nothing to do with Abraham at all.

Gari........It is important not to focus so exclusively on one particular passage that you are kept from a properly developed understanding of the consistent teaching of sacred Scripture as a whole. For example, the Old Testament book of Leviticus would be unsolvable without the New Testament book of Hebrews and the Old Testament book of the prophet Isaiah would be limited in its revelation without the four Gospels.

Heresies usually begin from an exaggerated interpretation of one passage of Scripture without looking at Scripture as a whole.

The understanding I have is of the whole. Genesis through Revelation and not just one of the 66 chapters

There must be heresies as private interpretation called personal commentaries .It’s what makes the difference from denomination to denomination and there different formats.

The Bible say there must be heresies as oral traditions of men.

The kingdom does not come by observing the temporal thing seen .Like fingerprints or opinions every person has one between God and themself. Demandable heresies deny Christ bought them doing despite to the fullness of grace of the gospel .

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The power of the word of God worked in Abraham to both reveal the will and empower him to do it. it applies to any new creature like Abraham. It worked in Jonas who resisted the Spirit of grace working in him to both reveal and perform the good pleasure of God. and Jonas murmured kicked against the pricks all the way. Three thousand saints Nineveh who did not know the left from the right entered fellowship they were raised with the other Old Testament believer when the veil was rent the grave opened and they entered their promise. In a hope of receiving a new incorruptible body.

The work of the father worked in the Son of man Jesus to both will and empower him. He was unlike murmuring Jonas. Jesus did the will of the father with pleasure. Or just as it worked in Abel the first recorded martyr and apostles sent to do the will of God. God’s labor of love or work of faith works in all believers not changing with time periods

Philipians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing’s:

God working . The gospel .

 

[Lanolin]

Why do you suppose there is so much doctrinal teaching in the NT (e.g. Rom 1-11, Gal 1-5, Eph 1-4, Heb 1-10 etc. etc.) almost reminding one of systematic theology in contrast to the OT which is mainly historical, poetical and Prophetic?

Those are letters Paul wrote advising the church.
That isn't to say that the OT doesn't have teaching in it. Entire books are full of teaching eg laws and ordinances in Leviticus. Moses wrote Exodus and it also has many commandments. But this was for the Israelites and does not pertain directly to the new testament church which is founded on the blood of Christ for the New covenant.

And NT has become historical but it's just a later history than the OT of course. Some of the things Paul writes about we don't really deal with today as customs have changed since 2000 years ago!

 

[Garee]

Those are letters Paul wrote advising the church.
That isn't to say that the OT doesn't have teaching in it. Entire books are full of teaching eg laws and ordinances in Leviticus. Moses wrote Exodus and it also has many commandments. But this was for the Israelites and does not pertain directly to the new testament church which is founded on the blood of Christ for the New covenant.

And NT has become historical but it's just a later history than the OT of course. Some of the things Paul writes about we don't really deal with today as customs have changed since 2000 years ago!

I would be careful with the idea that some scripture was historical or some is applied to certain Jewish flesh or having to with customs the passing of fads. The historical temporal is mixed with the unseen eternal understanding throughout the Bible. In that way Jesus the prophet is given words from the father, he as the chief apostle who came to do the will of the father said; without parables the hidden mysteries or spiritual understanding Christ spoke not through the prophets .All scripture is beneficial in discovering the will of God .

 

[Major]

I would be careful with the idea that some scripture was historical or some is applied to certain Jewish flesh or having to with customs the passing of fads. The historical temporal is mixed with the unseen eternal understanding throughout the Bible. In that way Jesus the prophet is given words from the father, he as the chief apostle who came to do the will of the father said; without parables the hidden mysteries or spiritual understanding Christ spoke not through the prophets .All scripture is beneficial in discovering the will of God .

Now that is something I can agree with.

 

[Major]

The understanding I have is of the whole. Genesis through Revelation and not just one of the 66 chapters

There must be heresies as private interpretation called personal commentaries .It’s what makes the difference from denomination to denomination and there different formats.

The Bible say there must be heresies as oral traditions of men.

The kingdom does not come by observing the temporal thing seen .Like fingerprints or opinions every person has one between God and themself. Demandable heresies deny Christ bought them doing despite to the fullness of grace of the gospel .

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The power of the word of God worked in Abraham to both reveal the will and empower him to do it. it applies to any new creature like Abraham. It worked in Jonas who resisted the Spirit of grace working in him to both reveal and perform the good pleasure of God. and Jonas murmured kicked against the pricks all the way. Three thousand saints Nineveh who did not know the left from the right entered fellowship they were raised with the other Old Testament believer when the veil was rent the grave opened and they entered their promise. In a hope of receiving a new incorruptible body.

The work of the father worked in the Son of man Jesus to both will and empower him. He was unlike murmuring Jonas. Jesus did the will of the father with pleasure. Or just as it worked in Abel the first recorded martyr and apostles sent to do the will of God. God’s labor of love or work of faith works in all believers not changing with time periods

Philipians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing’s:

God working . The gospel .

This is a true Scripture.........
Philipians 2: 13-14
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing’s:

This one is just as true, maybe more so in 1 John 4:1............
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

ALL Scripture is from God! ALL!

 

[Garee]

This is a true Scripture.........
Philipians 2: 13-14
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing’s:

This one is just as true, maybe more so in 1 John 4:1............
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

ALL Scripture is from God! ALL!

Yes All. to include the mysteries revealed in the parables .

They cannot be more if they are the same. In order to do his will we must first know his will as it is written. Its why having it in whole we can try the spirts .Every spirit after that of John in Revelation that says thus says the lord, I saw him there or hear or I had a dream as a direct revelation . We simply believe not (No faith) .In that way its not possible to deceive ther elect they abide in the warining .leaders that lord it over the flock like. . Brigham Young , Joseph Smith, Charles Mansion ,Jim Jones etc They would of never had a beginning if they would of tried the spirits .

As long as mankind believes God is still adding to His written witness there will be false teachers and false apostles coming with lying sign to wonder or marvel after with all power of deception. God sends a strong delusion so that man can continue to believe the lie

That spirit of error will have its freedom to deceive until the last day under the sun.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Mathew 24: 23-25 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

 

[Major]

Yes All. to include the mysteries revealed in the parables .

They cannot be more if they are the same. In order to do his will we must first know his will as it is written. Its why having it in whole we can try the spirts .Every spirit after that of John in Revelation that says thus says the lord, I saw him there or hear or I had a dream as a direct revelation . We simply believe not (No faith) .In that way its not possible to deceive ther elect they abide in the warining .leaders that lord it over the flock like. . Brigham Young , Joseph Smith, Charles Mansion ,Jim Jones etc They would of never had a beginning if they would of tried the spirits .

As long as mankind believes God is still adding to His written witness there will be false teachers and false apostles coming with lying sign to wonder or marvel after with all power of deception. God sends a strong delusion so that man can continue to believe the lie

That spirit of error will have its freedom to deceive until the last day under the sun.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Mathew 24: 23-25 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

You said...........
That spirit of error will have its freedom to deceive until the last day under the sun.

I agree completely with that comment and it is exactly why I have said directly to you that the PRETERIST agenda that you promote is Biblically false.

That is exactly why I have said that your comment that "SATAN FELL AT THE CROSS" is totally incorrect.

That is exactly why I have said to your that your opinion of the "Abomination of Desolation" is not Biblical.

ALL of those are Preterist teachings which you are promoting here under the guise of basic Christianity. That GAri is the "Spirit of Error".

You have said in the past what the PRETERIST theology says which is ......
1. Titus of the Roman Empire fulfilled the prophecies from Jesus in Matthew 24 when he destroyed the Temple in 70AD.
2. The PRETERIST doctrine is that he was the Antichrist of Revelation which has clouded your understanding of the Abomonation of Desolation., 3. He fulfilled the prophecies in Matthew 24 in 70AD.
4. We are already in the 1000 year rule of Christ.
5. The Church has replaced Israel.

If Titus was the Antichrist, who was the False Prophet, and who were the Two Witnesses? There is no record of these men.

Also in 70 A.D. real, recorded history says that .....

• The sun, moon and stars did not go dark.
• Jesus DID NOT come in the in clouds with power and glory, as the lighting flashes across the sky.
• The gathering of saints in the 1st resurrection did not happen!

THOSE ARE YOUR words Gari, not something thought up and that is ........
That spirit of error will have its freedom to deceive until the last day under the sun.

 

[crossnote]

Some of the things Paul writes about we don't really deal with today as customs have changed since 2000 years ago!

Do you have an example or two? I ask, because I find nearly everything Paul writes on is pertinent today. I'm curious where I'm missing out.

 

[Lanolin]

I would be careful with the idea that some scripture was historical or some is applied to certain Jewish flesh or having to with customs the passing of fads. The historical temporal is mixed with the unseen eternal understanding throughout the Bible. In that way Jesus the prophet is given words from the father, he as the chief apostle who came to do the will of the father said; without parables the hidden mysteries or spiritual understanding Christ spoke not through the prophets .All scripture is beneficial in discovering the will of God .

well the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT was in greek so those who didn't know Hebrew wouldn't have read it, OR they may have read the greek translation later on. But now it's translated into many speaking languages all over the world so we can all read both the OT and the NT and see how they are connected.

But there is definitely a change from OT to the NT. And that difference is Jesus the Word made flesh.

I definitley agree that both need to be read to fully understand God's revelation, but thing is you can't go backwards and now say well every (male) needs to be circumcised at 8 days old because even the NT said that gentiles don't have to do this to be Christians.

 

[Garee]

well the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT was in greek so those who didn't know Hebrew wouldn't have read it, OR they may have read the greek translation later on. But now it's translated into many speaking languages all over the world so we can all read both the OT and the NT and see how they are connected.

But there is definitely a change from OT to the NT. And that difference is Jesus the Word made flesh.

I definitley agree that both need to be read to fully understand God's revelation, but thing is you can't go backwards and now say well every (male) needs to be circumcised at 8 days old because even the NT said that gentiles don't have to do this to be Christians.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Prophecy the tongue of God is not under the power of Greek or Hebrew.. Different languages or tongues. . all nations heard prophecy the tongure of God at Pentecost.

The unbelieving faithless Jew that spoke hebrew had the same kind of idea. Because of it they refused to hear God . They said: “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Not knowing God wants to help His people they made a mockery of the spirit of judgment as it is written even mocking by falling backward slain in the Spirit . again. . The faithless Jews that had no faith coming from the scriptures.

It is identified in the foundation of the doctrine of tongues (the prophecy of God.). We can see God mocking them making sounds without understanding (“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”[)

Isaiah 28 :9-14 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies: “Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds[c] to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

The law is revisited in 1 Corinthians 14:22-23 A sign against the unbelieving Jew . They as drunks called Peter a drunk because God hid the gospel understanding from them , yet over and over they still believed not prophecy, the tongue of God a sign against them .

The previous need to be circumcised at 8 days old as shadow was that of a shdow to come our bloody husband Christ ) it signified Christ the first born Son of man Jesus the veil rent signifying the foreskin of our bloody husband .the first born . . the sign of cercumision is fullifiled

Christ fulfilled that shadow and created a new shadow as new testament ceremonial law was given.

Many today make that ceremonial law ( 1 Corinthians 11) used as a shadow they make it without effect dismissing the head uncovered for the male and hair covered for the woman passing it off a fashion fad for that time period.

Therefore losing a great gospel sign to the world of the coming event. The wedding supper and consummation of the union drinking of the cup of grape vine . Which Christ said he will not drink it again until the church receives the promised new incorruptible bodies

Culture change or language change does not change the authority of prophecy the tongue of God.

 

[Lanolin]

Thing is though the NT did say gentiles (non jews) were not under the same laws as Israel was because what was given to the Israelites in MT Sinai was not given to everyone in the entire world. The Israelites were also bound to the holy land and God specifically gave them the boundaries of that land.

They LOST that land when they couldn't keep the covenant and were exiled to lands where they were ruled by unbelieving nations, babylon etc.

If you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it's pretty easy to follow the story. Don't read the Bible backwards, you'll just confuse yourself (and others!)

 

[Garee]

Thing is though the NT did say gentiles (non jews) were not under the same laws as Israel was because what was given to the Israelites in MT Sinai was not given to everyone in the entire world. The Israelites were also bound to the holy land and God specifically gave them the boundaries of that land.

They LOST that land when they couldn't keep the covenant and were exiled to lands where they were ruled by unbelieving nations, babylon etc.

If you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it's pretty easy to follow the story. Don't read the Bible backwards, you'll just confuse yourself (and others!)

It sems to get easier or diferent as he adds we must decrease. He causes the increase id any

Many from my experience act and teach as if the first century reformation did not restore the government of God back the time period of Judges as promised in Joel. (Acts 2:15-17 ) Prophets as apostles sent out with the gospel men and woman from all nations. No outward fleshly representation (pagan foundation).

Believers like Abel walking by the faith of Christ that worked in them to both will and empower them to work with Christ. Being yoked with Him makes our burden of dying (the first death) lighter and as sons of God have a future promise of a new body.

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: (every nation) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

In many cases it seems that discussing the results of the 1st century reformation are considered taboo. The foundation of the matter must be part of the doctrine (1 Samuel 8 )

Ignoring the first century reformation will not profit

In 1 Samuel 8, the foundation of the doctrine when God gave over the faithless Jew who refused to hearken un to the word of God but rather say we will certainly do whatsoever our own mouth as a law of Kings Fathers and Princes and see no evil having made the word of God desolate of power

Jeremiah 44:16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, (a hierarchy of sinners) in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

A hierarchy of men lording it over the faith of the non-venerable as a law unto themselves making the word of God without effect. God temporally giving them over to do that they should not of (Kings in Israel) the abomination of desolation

A hierarchy of venerable men lording it over the faith of the non-venerable show watchers . again the abomination of desolation making the word of God without effect.

Again they were not called to assemble, they had no faith in God not seen, none not little as we have. They gathered themselves together comparing themselves to their selves flesh to flesh commending each other .No faith that could please God. 2 Corinthians helps under the abomination of desolation a hierarchy of men. Making everything about themselves (flesh)

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

! Samuel8: 4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

God had turned the faithless, atheistic Jews who followed after oral tradition of mankind making the word of God desolate. No man can serve two teaching masters. Its either man seen or God not seen. In that way we are to call no man on earth infallible teacher as master and Lord

We serve God not seen and not like the unbelieving Jew making them the teacher through “I heard it through the grave vine” oral tradition of man as if God was a man as us.

God has been saving sinners from the very beginning even before the temporal use of an outward Jew for a period of time up until the reformation this is when. The shadows ceremonial law add nothing as a sign they become sight when fulfilled .

Jew or Gentile same kind of corrupted flesh no power. Perfectly dead in their trespass and sin without hope and without God in this world .performing ceremonies does not make a person a new creature. The Jews in false pride turned that upside down thinking the sign as shadows pointed to their flesh the temporal

There is no division between the flesh of a Jew and the flesh of a Gentile. God is the savior of mankind Gentile as well as Jew. There is no reason I could think for even thinking there could be. They had a advantage in time past to be used as a metaphor according to ceremonies laws a shadows but it added nothing to them .it was intended to be a sign of Christ to the world. Not a sign unto themselves .Aarons two sons made that mistake adding a person touch (I did it self-righteous ) in a hope of being venerated .The fire consumed their flesh the ceremonial . The priestly equipment not a hint of smoke.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

One spiritual body (unseen) as new creatures . . .neither male nor female Jew or gentile. God is no respecter of flesh. Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for nothing zero .God is simply not a man.

God was working in mankind freely giving them faith to believe His word . Long before he set aside the word Jew . Abel is the first recorded member of the bride of Christ The first recorded apostle and martyr.