Religion, Faith And Rituals

Candelario Mario Villa said:
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Very good, Beloved. Please let me elaborate just a little.

Since the cross, to this day, I do not see anyone born in sin (sinful). The Lord Jesus has taken care of the sin of Adam. So we are born without sin, but we are "...baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...". And it is only for our own
sins that we are responsible . According to scriptures, if anyone else can live without sin, he will not die: "...for the wages of sin is death...". But because "...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God...", then we will all die the death that is common for all men...except that those who are in Christ Jesus will be resurrected with Him!

Beloved, Walk in the Light.
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What? "born without sin" Christ and His atonement is for the believers not a cleansing of the world apart from faith in Him. Wow this is a new doctrine!

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
 
Mitspa said:
Two possibilities? 1 is that you have made contact with a spirit that is trying to convince you that it is god. and this spirit is making things happen around you to keep you in its deception.

2 That God is dealing with based upon what you will become and who you are in Christ (if in fact you are).

What sort of prayers and answers are you speaking of as evidence? The scriptures are very clear that God does not give us that we use for our own lust.
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The first possibility scared me! Ok prayers like...I left my house to go live with a man, things fell apart, I was stuck in that house struggling to pay all the bills so I prayed and cried and begged god if he could give me back my other place cuz that was my home, I told god I knew I made a mistake. And 8 months after I went on the site for renters and there it was!!! Available for rent, my old apartment! And I got it back. Than I got fired, I as plied to a bunch of jobs my employment insurance was to be up, I was to receive my last check, I didn't know what I would do as I didn't have a new job yet. So I prayed and a week before my last check I got a job!! Next one is...when I was in a relationship I suspected the guy was cheating on me so I prayed and I said to god "god please show me what you have to show me, show me what I need to see about this man no matter how bad it is". And one night I was sitting in bed his phone was by my feet and something in me said go look in his phone, I hesitated and said no no that's not me I don't do things like that. But it nagged me and nagged me till I literarily felt like a little push, so I have in and looked in his phone, sure enough there was a conversation between him and another woman and nude pictures from her to him. Next one...I lived with a friend and she was no friend at all, so it turned out, she stole from me and also my children, she used my younger daughter to pay for take out. I cried to god cuz I couldn't take it, I prayed and never stopped, I couldn't find a place and was at my wit end. I was ready to move anywhere didn't care the quality of it. Than god answered and I went to see a place which I got and it exceeded all my expectations!! The latest one is I needed another job, so I asked god to help me. I got 2 interviews, one the hours didn't work for me because it was overnights and I work 3-11 at my full time job Monday to Friday. The next interview I went to I knew that job was mine, by the way the interview went. So I waited and. No call I started to loose hope that I would get it. I went to church the Sunday and I said to god "father you know I need this job and you know why, I'm capable and strong at this point in my life to handle 2 jobs so please let me have it while I can handle it cuz I day will come when I won't be able to". The Friday I got a call and got the job!! Hours are perfect too.
 
magdalena said:
The first possibility scared me! Ok prayers like...I left my house to go live with a man, things fell apart, I was stuck in that house struggling to pay all the bills so I prayed and cried and begged god if he could give me back my other place cuz that was my home, I told god I knew I made a mistake. And 8 months after I went on the site for renters and there it was!!! Available for rent, my old apartment! And I got it back. Than I got fired, I as plied to a bunch of jobs my employment insurance was to be up, I was to receive my last check, I didn't know what I would do as I didn't have a new job yet. So I prayed and a week before my last check I got a job!! Next one is...when I was in a relationship I suspected the guy was cheating on me so I prayed and I said to god "god please show me what you have to show me, show me what I need to see about this man no matter how bad it is". And one night I was sitting in bed his phone was by my feet and something in me said go look in his phone, I hesitated and said no no that's not me I don't do things like that. But it nagged me and nagged me till I literarily felt like a little push, so I have in and looked in his phone, sure enough there was a conversation between him and another woman and nude pictures from her to him. Next one...I lived with a friend and she was no friend at all, so it turned out, she stole from me and also my children, she used my younger daughter to pay for take out. I cried to god cuz I couldn't take it, I prayed and never stopped, I couldn't find a place and was at my wit end. I was ready to move anywhere didn't care the quality of it. Than god answered and I went to see a place which I got and it exceeded all my expectations!! The latest one is I needed another job, so I asked god to help me. I got 2 interviews, one the hours didn't work for me because it was overnights and I work 3-11 at my full time job Monday to Friday. The next interview I went to I knew that job was mine, by the way the interview went. So I waited and. No call I started to loose hope that I would get it. I went to church the Sunday and I said to god "father you know I need this job and you know why, I'm capable and strong at this point in my life to handle 2 jobs so please let me have it while I can handle it cuz I day will come when I won't be able to". The Friday I got a call and got the job!! Hours are perfect too.
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You know what Magdalene, I very well may have made a real mistake in my earlier post to you...I believe I should ask for your forgiveness? I failed to understand what you where saying in that you where just being honest about your weaknesses not proclaiming you had a right to sin, because God is good. I have to go to work now but will read over more of your post and try to respond in a manner that would please God...
 
Mitspa said:
What? "born without sin" Christ and His atonement is for the believers not a cleansing of the world apart from faith in Him. Wow this is a new doctrine!

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
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No, it's not a "new" doctrine. No one was born with Adam's sin: the Lord took care of it at the cross.
Now come here, little one: put your finger on the sciptures you have quoted...that's it! Now see? Those scriptures are to those who have already sinned! As soon as a man sins, he is dead to God...but He has made a way...
Do you "see" now, or shoud O help you recite this again?

Candelario Mario Villa
 
Candelario Mario Villa said:
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No, it's not a "new" doctrine. No one was born with Adam's sin: the Lord took care of it at the cross.
Now come here, little one: put your finger on the sciptures you have quoted...that's it! Now see? Those scriptures are to those who have already sinned! As soon as a man sins, he is dead to God...but He has made a way...
Do you "see" now, or shoud O help you recite this again?

Candelario Mario Villa
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No Mario, the Cross is received by faith. I think you should reread what Paul is teaching in Romans? You have failed to understand upon what ground God has delivered man from the effects of Adams sin.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
Mitspa said:
No Mario, the Cross is received by faith. I think you should reread what Paul is teaching in Romans? You have failed to understand upon what ground God has delivered man from the effects of Adams sin.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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Beloved, I am looking at the cross; you are looking at the sin. The sins of the world were placed on the Lord Jesus for the benefit of those who would sin. A baby today is not capable of sinning, just as it is not capable or in need of repenting.
Unless you believe in baptism for the children...?

Candelario Mario Villa
 
Candelario Mario Villa said:
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Beloved, I am looking at the cross; you are looking at the sin. The sins of the world were placed on the Lord Jesus for the benefit of those who would sin. A baby today is not capable of sinning, just as it is not capable or in need of repenting.
Unless you believe in baptism for the children...?

Candelario Mario Villa
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What? we are not talking about babies but about adults. Who are sinners until they accept the Cross. All are sinners and born sinners just as the scriptures declare.
 
Mitspa said:
What? we are not talking about babies but about adults. Who are sinners until they accept the Cross. All are sinners and born sinners just as the scriptures declare.
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Yes, Beloved, I was talking about babies. Maybe you just missed it. (Post #65: No, it's not a "new" doctrine. No one was
born with Adam's sin).
Again, I reiterate: a baby today is not capable of sin just as it is not capable of repenting. Therefore babies do not have
to be baptized" "...for the remission of sins...".
But let me ask: you do not believe that the sin of Adam was resolved on the cross? Do you believe that Adam is in sin, still?
For if we all are born in sin, then Adam's sin was not resolved: now the propensity to sin is another matter.

Beloved, Walk in the Light.
 
Candelario Mario Villa said:
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Yes, Beloved, I was talking about babies. Maybe you just missed it. (Post #65: No, it's not a "new" doctrine. No one was
born with Adam's sin).
Again, I reiterate: a baby today is not capable of sin just as it is not capable of repenting. Therefore babies do not have
to be baptized" "...for the remission of sins...".
But let me ask: you do not believe that the sin of Adam was resolved on the cross? Do you believe that Adam is in sin, still?
For if we all are born in sin, then Adam's sin was not resolved: now the propensity to sin is another matter.

Beloved, Walk in the Light.
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You always go back to your baptism speech, no matter what the topic. Mario I will talk to you one more time, but do not tell me my beliefs are from denominations, or as your last post to me in the Legit Question thread where you think I believe as I do because Mitspa is doing some type of brainwashing on me. I believe as I do because God teaches me and I read the bible. Please deal directly with what we are discussing.

The bible says, "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14).

Not having the law so there was no knowledge of the law is the same as a baby not knowing the law. There is no difference. Yet, even without breaking any command death (Romans 6:23- "For the wages of sin is death") still reigned when there was no law given.

Again, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

Are you contradicting this scripture?
 
God calls me Olivia said:
You always go back to your baptism speech, no matter what the topic. Mario I will talk to you one more time, but do not tell me my beliefs are from denominations, or as your last post to me in the Legit Question thread where you think I believe as I do because Mitspa is doing some type of brainwashing on me. I believe as I do because God teaches me and I read the bible. Please deal directly with what we are discussing.
The bible says, "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14).
Not having the law so there was no knowledge of the law is the same as a baby not knowing the law. There is no difference. Yet, even without breaking any command death (Romans 6:23- "For the wages of sin is death") still reigned when there was no law given.
Again, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).
Are you contradicting this scripture?
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Beloved, can you quit talking about Jesus and the cross? I don't believe you can. Neither can I quit on the core of the Gospel.

Death has reigned since Adam, and is reigning still, for "...the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." The Law that you are referring to is the Law of Moses: the Law I refer to is the Law of Sin and Death: and it was before Moses.

I cannot contradict Ps. 51:5, for David was also born under the Law of Sin and Death: he sinned and he procured death; his father and mother ALSO sinned; consequently, "...in sin did my mother conceive me." David was not in sin when he was conceived, his mother and father were under the curse, as were all men.

Beloved, Walk in the Truth.
 
Mitspa said:
Well I would reject the connection with the tree of knowledge as was presented on the video Christ was not both trees, the law represents the tree of knowledge of good and evil, from which death comes to man, through the knowledge of sin. In Christ we return to the original intention of Gods plan, made in His Image and His Glory and having life.
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Yes...I think what this man was saying was that the cross...as also the instrument they used to judge Him and cause His death (like the law) can be figuratively understood as the tree of knowledge and that the same cross (the instrument by which Christ saves us) is also figuratively the tree of life.

I am not sure I agree with it either (I have heard other analogies, one being the one you just espoused) but it seemed relevant to Christ being the Good in the sense of "Why do you call me good, there is only one good (God)...

If Christ IS God (which of course I believe He is...and Olivia has done a good job representing this from scripture) then He is Good and the man was not incorrect when he called Him this...I just think the Orthodox view brings this out most succinctly...this view of the Fall shows God had a purpose in allowing Adam and Eve to eat of the tree He foreknew they would choose and that this was actually essential for the ultimate goal of all salvation being of grace...

Okay! I apologize...I amy have derailed the purpose of the thread...the OP was implying they knew God and did not believe Christ IS God...do I guess this vid for me somehow had to do with clarifying a point of Jesus actually being good, thus God...I realize there are much simpler scriptural examples...this may have been a bit deep for some (not you Mitzpa, I got your point and it is well taken)

apologies

brother Paul
 
Again, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

Liv, you know I love you and know what a devoted Bible student you are but Psalm 51:5 is actually misinterpreted here. The actual Psalm/verse (even in English) says nothing about David's sin or lack thereof at birth, only his parents iniquity...(probably conceived in unbridled lust...self centered pleasure seeking...)

Truly...I know the Reformed school and Roman Catholics claim "this is what it means" but they are both in error and interpret it to fit their erroneous judicial view of the original sin (which really only means first sin)...thus Christ becomes the victim of the Father's wrath to satisfy His need for justice and vengeance...but all the NT scriptures which speak of the cross event say just the opposite (ex. John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 2:1-7; 1 John 4:19 and more...it was an act of love on the part of the Father not wrath)

But really...find most other translations and just read "what it says" ignoring what many say "it means"...the pre-JPS (traditional) Masoretic and the LXX both read "behold, I was conceived in (not with) iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me (not my mother conceived me with sin)
 
Brother Paul said:
Again, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

Liv, you know I love you and know what a devoted Bible student you are but Psalm 51:5 is actually misinterpreted here. The actual Psalm/verse (even in English) says nothing about David's sin or lack thereof at birth, only his parents iniquity...(probably conceived in unbridled lust...self centered pleasure seeking...)

Truly...I know the Reformed school and Roman Catholics claim "this is what it means" but they are both in error and interpret it to fit their erroneous judicial view of the original sin (which really only means first sin)...thus Christ becomes the victim of the Father's wrath to satisfy His need for justice and vengeance...but all the NT scriptures which speak of the cross event say just the opposite (ex. John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 2:1-7; 1 John 4:19 and more...it was an act of love on the part of the Father not wrath)

But really...find most other translations and just read "what it says" ignoring what many say "it means"...the pre-JPS (traditional) Masoretic and the LXX both read "behold, I was conceived in (not with) iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me (not my mother conceived me with sin)
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Paul, I do believe that God knew Adam and Eve would sin and the Garden of Eden is about forgiveness and love. I believe everything about God is love, for God is love and all his qualities like holiness are love.

Now I don't read anything but the bible and Concordance except for things like posts here, so what I say is not off the Reformed or Roman Catholic view. I believe God is not fulfilling wrath in saving us, but loves us and desires us as his family and he made a way for us to be pure and holy through Jesus so it could be eternal because it is not in our own power but in the power of God.

As far as the verse however, even if it is conceived in iniquity (by sinful parents), if iniquity is what is creating the child, then even if the child has never sinned they are imperfect for they were created not of complete purity and perfection (true faith) but are imperfection which is sin. Only God could create perfection, which is Jesus.

Now one could argue that the child is made Holy through the faith of the parent. "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy" (1 Corinthians 7:14), yet the child is made holy in the same manner by the faith of the believing parent or parents, not by being born holy.

Again however, I believe holiness is love and for God to have us in an eternity of love we have to be born into perfection and the only way to do that is through Christ. This is how pure love will be always eternally.
 
God calls me Olivia said:
Paul, I do believe that God knew Adam and Eve would sin and the Garden of Eden is about forgiveness and love. I believe everything about God is love, for God is love and all his qualities like holiness are love.
Now I don't read anything but the bible and Concordance except for things like posts here, so what I say is not off the Reformed or Roman Catholic view. I believe God is not fulfilling wrath in saving us, but loves us and desires us as his family and he made a way for us to be pure and holy through Jesus so it could be eternal because it is not in our own power but in the power of God.
As far as the verse however, even if it is conceived in iniquity (by sinful parents), if iniquity is what is creating the child, then even if the child has never sinned they are imperfect for they were created not of complete purity and perfection (true faith) but are imperfection which is sin. Only God could create perfection, which is Jesus.
Now one could argue that the child is made Holy through the faith of the parent. "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy" (1 Corinthians 7:14), yet the child is made holy in the same manner by the faith of the believing parent or parents, not by being born holy.
Again however, I believe holiness is love and for God to have us in an eternity of love we have to be born into perfection and the only way to do that is through Christ. This is how pure love will be always eternally.
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"...but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat; for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

Of course God knew Adam and Eve would sin; even as He knew Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus and Lucifer would commit iniquity. Iniquity is greater than sin, for it implies a knowledge of righteousness: "You were perfect in all your ways...". Lucifer was in the presence of God; even of His holiness. On the other hand, Adam and Eve were created perfect (without iniquity and sin), but were not in God's presence. So their sin was in not confessing their fault to God, and in covering their sin with the work of their own hands. In essence:
Iniquity: knowing to do right, and not doing it;
Sin: trying to do that which is right, the wrong way.

Indeed God is Love. And His plan was to have His children with Him in Perfect Love: without iniquity and sin: and having them present their free wills to Him in the same Love He gave them. To do this, God permitted iniquity and sin, and then
resolved the question of iniquity and sin by mercy and grace. He showed mercy via the Sacrificial Law of Moses; he showed grace via the sacrificial Lamb.

If God didn't know, than He is not omniscient: and He cannot be God.

Walk in the Light, as He is in the Light.
 
Job 10:8 -“Your hands shaped me and made me.”

In Psalm 139, David wrote, “For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.”

Psalm 199:3, “Know ye that the Lord is God; it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk in it.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Zech.12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.

So the scriptures establish that it is God who makes, creates, the spirit in a person when they are formed. So are we saying that God creates iniquitous spirits in people? Condemned souls are what He forms? Sin is not inherited…as far as I can see

brother Paul
 
Mitspa said:
You know what Magdalene, I very well may have made a real mistake in my earlier post to you...I believe I should ask for your forgiveness? I failed to understand what you where saying in that you where just being honest about your weaknesses not proclaiming you had a right to sin, because God is good. I have to go to work now but will read over more of your post and try to respond in a manner that would please God...
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I think at times I might word things the wrong way or in ways that could be confusing. I'm just saying that god is in my heart. I'm not here to judge anyone it how they worship and praise god. To me god is god, let all his children be one no matter how we choose to pray or worship. Everyone is wonderful in here and is trying to help, and I don't hold grudges. I take opinions as they come wrong or wright, we all are entitled to ours. No need to ask for forgiveness, I was fine with your post. Plus I don't mind to hear anything anyone had to say. I just want people to understand that we all are different and non perfect. We all need some work in one area or another. All we can do is try and do our best,love god and let him lead us in the path he had for us. I think the most important thing is to surrender out life's to god and let him do his work. No matter what he loves us all.
 
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