Religion, Faith And Rituals

[Mitspa]

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Yes, Beloved, I was talking about babies. Maybe you just missed it. (Post #65: No, it's not a "new" doctrine. No one was
born with Adam's sin).
Again, I reiterate: a baby today is not capable of sin just as it is not capable of repenting. Therefore babies do not have
to be baptized" "...for the remission of sins...".
But let me ask: you do not believe that the sin of Adam was resolved on the cross? Do you believe that Adam is in sin, still?
For if we all are born in sin, then Adam's sin was not resolved: now the propensity to sin is another matter.

Beloved, Walk in the Light.

Look Mario , all are sinners and none are good no not one, and your idea that Adams sin is not upon the non-believer is just completely unbiblical. Lets look at the scriptures and try to understand when and how Adams sin is dealt with through the obedience of Christ? To take "faith in Christ" out of this truth is to take the truth and cast it aside.

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

One must "receive" this atonement through Jesus Christ, and that requires faith.

 

[Mitspa]

Job 10:8 -“Your hands shaped me and made me.”

In Psalm 139, David wrote, “For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.”

Psalm 199:3, “Know ye that the Lord is God; it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk in it.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Zech.12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.

So the scriptures establish that it is God who makes, creates, the spirit in a person when they are formed. So are we saying that God creates iniquitous spirits in people? Condemned souls are what He forms? Sin is not inherited…as far as I can see

brother Paul

No Adam perverted man, not God. And none of these scriptures can contradict the clear reading of the New Testament, until a person receives the Spirit of God, they are not born of God. Now to just throw some OT scriptures together and attempt to form such a doctrine, is just error. The New Testament reveals that which was hidden in the old. If one forms a doctrine from some random OT scriptures that is in conflict with clear New Testament truth, then guess which doctrine is in error? Now the condition of mans spirit in the old testament was not what we understand in the new. Christ is the whole difference and I suggest that you reconsider what you are trying to claim here brother Paul, because I can prove in absolute biblical terms you are in error. If you would like to take a sincere study and point by point go over in context what the scriptures teach on this issue?

 

[Mitspa]

Again, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

Liv, you know I love you and know what a devoted Bible student you are but Psalm 51:5 is actually misinterpreted here. The actual Psalm/verse (even in English) says nothing about David's sin or lack thereof at birth, only his parents iniquity...(probably conceived in unbridled lust...self centered pleasure seeking...)

Truly...I know the Reformed school and Roman Catholics claim "this is what it means" but they are both in error and interpret it to fit their erroneous judicial view of the original sin (which really only means first sin)...thus Christ becomes the victim of the Father's wrath to satisfy His need for justice and vengeance...but all the NT scriptures which speak of the cross event say just the opposite (ex. John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 2:1-7; 1 John 4:19 and more...it was an act of love on the part of the Father not wrath)

But really...find most other translations and just read "what it says" ignoring what many say "it means"...the pre-JPS (traditional) Masoretic and the LXX both read "behold, I was conceived in (not with) iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me (not my mother conceived me with sin)

That's just your opinion Paul, There is no hint of Davids Parents "sin" (that's dishonest) and the translation is a solid one and is saying the same thing the rest of the scriptures are saying. We are all born in sin.. now this is a clear truth in scripture and was the whole purpose of the law of Moses. To make all see that they where born sinners. But some will not and cannot admit that truth and will come up with all kinds of stuff to reject the truth.

 

[MichaelH]

Look Mario , all are sinners and none are good no not one, and your idea that Adams sin is not upon the non-believer is just completely unbiblical. Lets look at the scriptures and try to understand when and how Adams sin is dealt with through the obedience of Christ? To take "faith in Christ" out of this truth is to take the truth and cast it aside.

I am not sure what Mario is really saying here. Perhaps he needs to clarify. Babies, don't sin, for where their is no law, sin is not imputed.

Babies are santified by the believing parent else the Children would be unclean. Children suffer at the choice of the Parent (Hose 4:6) (Deu 30:19)

All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. There is none good, not one.

Now is it Adams sin on all, or is it the effect of the sin on all?

by one mans sin...... Death Reigned. The law of sin and death came in, and one that had the power over death which is the devil.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Nobody is guilty of Adams sin.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It says Death, not sin passed to all men.

Death is the last enemy to be defeated, so then it was not that babies have Adams sin, it's that all are under the effect of that sin which is death.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:14)

Jesus came for the atonement of sin, which is clean up for what the devil caused. His main purpose in coming was to deal with what the devil had done. Removing the death, and making what caused the death right.

This may be what Mario meant, I am not 100% sure. It's easy to just throw a statement up, know your right but not explain it and know that folks won't understand it. I am guilty of that.

Jesus did not start out perfect.......

I can just throw that out there, and it always invokes folks because they don't take the time to consider it might be a true statement.

Often I get....... "what, you saying Jesus sinned?"

No, it means you have to study more, or I have to explain it better, but how is it my fault you have ignorance in a area?

I have several of these that I know rubs religion the wrong way, and I hate religion.

As for Paul's statement it's God's fault, you have to consider the source and I have learned to leave him alone. God gets the blame for everything anyway........... I hate religion.

 

[Mitspa]

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Beloved, I am looking at the cross; you are looking at the sin. The sins of the world were placed on the Lord Jesus for the benefit of those who would sin. A baby today is not capable of sinning, just as it is not capable or in need of repenting.
Unless you believe in baptism for the children...?

Candelario Mario Villa

Of course God is not imputing sin to babies, that does not mean they are not in a condition of the flesh, just as all men are.

 

[Mitspa]

Death by sin... That means death is a result of sin..from Adam

 

[Mitspa]

I tell you some of you need a trip the Cross, and God would show you what is inside of you and you would never question whether men are born sinners.

 

[MichaelH]

Death by sin... That means death is a result of sin..

right...... but even without the sin..................... Nobody escapes the death but through faith in Jesus. Not sinning does not mean your not effected by Adams sin. For even those who have not sinned it effected.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


So in effect, Mario could say Babies don't have Adams sin.............. but it's sort of picking straws here, being picky or however you want to word that.


You could use this.

Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

It's clear, though babies not have Adams sin, there was something in us that needed Purged.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Mine says:

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Which seems like when written this way, has a different meaning. JS

 

[Mitspa]

right...... but even without the sin..................... Nobody escapes the death but through faith in Jesus. Not sinning does not mean your not effected by Adams sin. For even those who have not sinned it effected.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


So in effect, Mario could say Babies don't have Adams sin.............. but it's sort of picking straws here, being picky or however you want to word that.


You could use this.

Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

It's clear, though babies not have Adams sin, there was something in us that needed Purged.

The flesh itself is "sin" we are in a body of death. That is dying and only in the Spirit are we alive. The Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies. There no "not sinning" for the flesh. That's why Paul is so detailed, and concerned about this issue. I could keep every religious rule in every church and still be in "sin" in the flesh even if I did not see my sin, its still there and active and brings death. Paul was the greatest lawkeeper of his day, but when he seen the truth about his flesh, he declared how wretched he was. Now no one not even Paul could have found hin in a "sin" but the Holy Spirit caused him to see the truth.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Job 10:8 -“Your hands shaped me and made me.”

In Psalm 139, David wrote, “For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.”

Psalm 199:3, “Know ye that the Lord is God; it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk in it.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Zech.12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.

So the scriptures establish that it is God who makes, creates, the spirit in a person when they are formed. So are we saying that God creates iniquitous spirits in people? Condemned souls are what He forms? Sin is not inherited…as far as I can see

brother Paul

It is not the one formed in the mother that is in sin. It is from the father that is the sin. That is why Jesus could have an earthly mother and be perfect because God was perfect. It is from Adam the man that sin entered into humanity. God is not in the conception.

 

[Mitspa]

Mine says:

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Which seems like when written this way, has a different meaning. JS

interesting, but there is no one that does not "break a command" and all are sinners from the womb.

 

[Mitspa]

It is not the one formed in the mother that is in sin. It is from the father that is the sin. That is why Jesus could have an earthly mother and be perfect because God was perfect. It is from Adam the man that sin entered into humanity. God is not in the conception.

Right Olivia! that's part of the mystery. The mothers blood is not in the baby only the Fathers and we know who the Father is. Thus sin was not passed to the Lord from Mary.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

interesting, but there is no one that does not "break a command" and all are sinners from the womb.

Because the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Anyone that claims they never break this commandment is also breaking the commandment of lying, so they get 2 strikes!

 

[Mitspa]

Because the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Anyone that claims they never break this commandment is also breaking the commandment of lying, so they get 2 strikes!

Right and we can only keep that because He first loved us.. See we cannot keep the command until Gods love is first given to us "in Christ" and then we love with the love we have been given. That's why Jesus said this is MY COMMANDMENT- in His commandment all the law is fulfilled.

 

[Mitspa]

Think about the fact that God gave us a commandment we could keep? Because He is only demanding from us what we have first been given. I am not responsible to love others according to the love you know from God but according to what I know from God. I know I can love if its based upon His love for me, all I do is just love with the love He gives to me.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

No one can be without sin. For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. Not even a child is without sin, because are people born loving God? No, they're not born loving God, and if you don't love God you are breaking the greatest commandment.

 

[MichaelH]

Mine says:

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Which seems like when written this way, has a different meaning. JS

Not really........ The similitude... command.......... God told Adam not to do something, and Adam did it anyway. The sin of disobeying Light given.

There is lots of sin, that We don't have light on, or know it's sin. We all keep getting corrected more and more and things we thought were OK, are no longer OK.

Adams Acts was straight out rebellion Against God. So those that have not sinned even after this manner, still have death.

Hope that makes sense.

The flesh itself is "sin" we are in a body of death. That is dying and only in the Spirit are we alive. The Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies. There no "not sinning" for the flesh. That's why Paul is so detailed, and concerned about this issue. I could keep every religious rule in every church and still be in "sin" in the flesh even if I did not see my sin, its still there and active and brings death. Paul was the greatest lawkeeper of his day, but when he seen the truth about his flesh, he declared how wretched he was. Now no one not even Paul could have found hin in a "sin" but the Holy Spirit caused him to see the truth.

Mitspa................. I won't pick staws with you. I know what you mean.
The flesh just does what it's trained to do.............. The Works of the flesh.............. (Gal 5:19)

There is no scripture saying the Body or flesh is sin. There are scriptures that say this is a body of death and the Works of flesh are sin.

The Law was weak through the flesh, the sinful flesh. It was not the flesh being the issue, it was trying to keep the commandments of God through sinful flesh. We needed something stronger than flesh. (Rom 8:3)
The flesh lust after things, but it's only because inside we give it a place, in our minds, (soul)
The flesh also has lust (Wants which is what lust means) that are good, like needing some water. The flesh has no control over itself.

If flesh was actually Sin, then being flesh creatures we would loose the battle quickly. The Flesh is not redeemed at all. The flesh can be directed to want good things under the Power of the Holy Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, we won't satisfy the lust of the Flesh. The flesh pulls on us for bad or good, it just wants satisfied. It's not sin, but it's not always good either. We keep our body under subjection, Our body was bought and paid for with a price.

Babies are the most carnal flesh people on the planet. They only think of number 1, what makes them happy. That does not mean their body is sin though, it means they are flesh ruled.

I am trying to help you Mitspa........ Some here want spot on accuracy in wording. If we don't see that, we misunderstand what they are trying to say. I am not accusing Mario of doing it on purpose. I know I do at times though.

The flesh only does what Controls it. The sin conscience is in man, Jesus purged us of. The flesh follows after what it sees and why we keep our eye single.

 

[AllieWi]

I just want to show you that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but is God as well

""In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John1:1). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

From these two verses we can see that Jesus was the Word and it says, "the Word was God."

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am (John 8:58).
"And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you (Exodus 3:14).

Again by comparing scriptures we see that Jesus was God.

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:5-8).

"But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is not God the Father, but God the Son.

Clear as day <3

 

[Mitspa]

Not really........ The similitude... command.......... God told Adam not to do something, and Adam did it anyway. The sin of disobeying Light given.

There is lots of sin, that We don't have light on, or know it's sin. We all keep getting corrected more and more and things we thought were OK, are no longer OK.

Adams Acts was straight out rebellion Against God. So those that have not sinned even after this manner, still have death.

Hope that makes sense.



Mitspa................. I won't pick staws with you. I know what you mean.
The flesh just does what it's trained to do.............. The Works of the flesh.............. (Gal 5:19)

There is no scripture saying the Body or flesh is sin. There are scriptures that say this is a body of death and the Works of flesh are sin.

The Law was weak through the flesh, the sinful flesh. It was not the flesh being the issue, it was trying to keep the commandments of God through sinful flesh. We needed something stronger than flesh. (Rom 8:3)
The flesh lust after things, but it's only because inside we give it a place, in our minds, (soul)
The flesh also has lust (Wants which is what lust means) that are good, like needing some water. The flesh has no control over itself.

If flesh was actually Sin, then being flesh creatures we would loose the battle quickly. The Flesh is not redeemed at all. The flesh can be directed to want good things under the Power of the Holy Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, we won't satisfy the lust of the Flesh. The flesh pulls on us for bad or good, it just wants satisfied. It's not sin, but it's not always good either. We keep our body under subjection, Our body was bought and paid for with a price.

Babies are the most carnal flesh people on the planet. They only think of number 1, what makes them happy. That does not mean their body is sin though, it means they are flesh ruled.

I am trying to help you Mitspa........ Some here want spot on accuracy in wording. If we don't see that, we misunderstand what they are trying to say. I am not accusing Mario of doing it on purpose. I know I do at times though.

The flesh only does what Controls it. The sin conscience is in man, Jesus purged us of. The flesh follows after what it sees and why we keep our eye single.

Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.