RIP: Church Music

Major said:
I do not know you well enough to not ask. That is kind of like not explaining the gospel to someone you do not know thinking they have already heard it.

May dear sister, may I say to you that Spiritual Manipulation has been used in the church since there was a church. Spiritual manipulation is a technique used by some abusive churches and cults to control individuals and acquire gain, all the while giving the impression that their teachings are based on the Bible.

The practice of isolating “proof texts” and “cherry picking” verses to persuade the uninformed that their interpretation is right, even to the extent of claiming they alone have “the truth” and everybody else is wrong. Some have even altered the Bible and produced their own translation to support their religious bias.

Have you ever had During a conversation between Christians, someone might say, "The Lord has told me that . . . ." ?????
This is one of the classic forms of MANIULATION.

This statement essentially shuts down the conversation because it implies that, since God has spoken a word, there can’t be any further discussion. don’t be fooled by this trick; it is a form of spiritual manipulation.

Or another is when a preacher says, "Sow into my ministry, and God will repay you. Sow, and you will reap! God is no man’s debtor."

Could such preaching simply be an exploitive appeal for money? Is the preacher trying to influence people for his own financial advantage? If so, it is spiritual manipulation.

Now the facts are Contemporary Worship music can move and manipulate emotions, even shape belief. Corporate worship is neurological and physiological.

Martin Luther in 1585 insisted that music’s ability to move and manipulate made it a singular, divine gift. “Next to the Word of God,” Luther wrote, “only music deserves being extolled as the mistress and governess of the feelings of the human heart. … Even the Holy Spirit honors music as a tool of his work.”
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I absolutely 100% agree with everything you have said here... EXCEPT for your point about music being manipulative. That part is just NOT registering with me... but I'm good... I have gleaned much from this thread BECAUSE it has given me a more compassionate view of caring for the "MAJORITY" (<<<<<<<<<<< I just punned you... HAHAHAHA ) which would be the senior members of a church. I absolutely agree 100% with RESPECT and ACCOMMODATING these precious and wise souls.

You are one person I will take the time to truly listen to... so thank you for responding to me... It matters to me.
 
Major said:
Good thoughts and Iam on your side. I grew up on the 50's rock and roll and then came country rock. I liked he Rolling Stones etc. My wife and I attended several rock concerts and many country ones as well. However.....my only contention in this topic is the incorporation of those types of song into the Christian Worship service. I submitt everyone that when we hear those songs we grew up on sung in church.....(Not lyrics but beat and rhythm) our minds take us bake to those days when those songs were new to us. Whether or not we admit it.......THAT is what they do. That then is not worship but "reminiscing" and we worship looking forward to Christ!
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Major said:
Yes and No. You see, it is the elderly who tithe and finance the church, any church. If and when the music program becomes to much modern contemporary, they leave or stop giving. That is not a people problem as much as it is a way to respond to something not liked.
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Good morning, Major;

Here is another thought and I'm sure you and others can relate. I remember when the music ministry was a Church organ, piano or an acoustic guitar.

Has anyone noticed in many of today's music ministry worship services or a Christian music video, the praise bands are equipped with expensive sound systems, electric guitars, lighting system, multi microphones, electronic keyboards with sound effects, and a high end drum set with a drum screen for controlling sound? and etc...

Nobody gives it a thought and this musical equipment is very expensive. I've been told if the praise team doesn't have this luxury they cannot perform and would respond with, "well, the expensive equipment can be a blessing from God and help us play and sound better."

I've seen my share of praise teams with expensive equipment but the return would be a song with 3 or 4 chords maybe with catchy sound effects but an unbalanced sound. In many cases the song was not Scriptural, spirit filled or growth in the praise team's ability to expand.

As a pastor who sat in the budget meetings I may be prejudiced against requests for musical equipment and accessories because I am aware of the costs.

I used to lead praise and worship many times with just an acoustic guitar, lasting 15 minutes, and only 1, 3 or 50 members showed up on a Wednesday evening service. But at least my investment in my guitar paid off and the Church didn't pay for it.

I can agree to a limited investment for the Church's music ministry but the difference can be used for missions giving or benevolence. The leader of the praise team and at times the board would receive my suggestion with a disappointing look. But God always made a way for the Church's musical equipment needs but I still remember the outcome of their faces from the discussions for the music ministry.

God bless you all.

Bob
 
In Awe of Him said:
This seems to be the common "thought" from those who are NOT in favour of contemporary Christian music. I have already clarified that I believe the problem with the mega churches is that they teach a false doctrine. ( Yes... this is a blanket statement ).

Can you or SOMEONE explain to me... what the purpose of corporate worship is?? Or is that a term that only the contemporary Worship camp has coined??

What is the emotion that is being manipulated? I'm still not clear as to what people are debating about here. I say this because I am the biggest fan of contemporary Worship music... but for the life of me... I do NOT see the "emotional manipulation/damage" anyone is referring to.

Is the concept of Worshipping together with fellow believers not meant to bring each individual CLOSER to the heart of FATHER GOD?

There is something I am not getting here... Someone please help me to understand how one can claim that certain music played in church causes one to be DECEIVED??? I mean all due respect... and it is not my intention to argue... I am truly at a loss to understand what some are saying here.

*** Edit... I think part of why I am not understanding what is truly being stated here is due to the fact that I am not aware of what is being played in churches today. Can someone Major or anyone else following this thread give me some examples of the type of songs that are causing problems?? I really have the heart to understand here... and if I am wrong in how I feel about the matter... I need to embrace the truth.
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I think part of the problem is that much of the time the syncopated rhythms are used by Chraismatic/Pentecostal congregations where worship leaders tend to whip up the crowds into states of emotional ecstasy where they run around uncontrollably, drop to the floor and emulate symptoms of seizures, or make animal sounds.
 
BibleLover said:
I think part of the problem is that much of the syncopated rhythms are used by Chraismatic/Pentecostal congregations where worship leaders tend to whip up the crowds into states of emotional ecstasy where they run around uncontrollably, drop to the floor and emulate symptoms of seizures, or make animal sounds.
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Is that still a thing?? I remember seeing stuff like that on Youtube many years ago... You forgot to mention the laughing fits and barking like a dog. LOL
 
In Awe of Him said:
Is that still a thing?? I remember seeing stuff like that on Youtube many years ago... You forgot to mention the laughing fits and barking like a dog. LOL
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Hello In Awe of Him;

Laughing and barking fit frenzies are not Biblical. As believers of God we seriously need to come to our senses and learn what true worship is, and the purpose of why we attend Church. The Bible provides these answers and the teacher adds complements to the teaching.

The praise and worship set is not the whole service but a time of bringing us together as One to celebrate Jesus.

I feel that is the jist of what many are saying here.

God bless you, sister.
 
bobinfaith said:
Laughing and barking fit frenzies are not Biblical. As believers of God we seriously need to come to our senses and learn what true worship is, and the purpose of why we attend Church.
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My comment was made from post 104... BibleLover said this.

I think part of the problem is that much of the time the syncopated rhythms are used by Chraismatic/Pentecostal congregations where worship leaders tend to whip up the crowds into states of emotional ecstasy where they run around uncontrollably, drop to the floor and emulate symptoms of seizures, or make animal sounds.

My comment was a sarcastic one. I remember seeing these "freak shows" which were as BibleLover quoted from the Charasmatic/Pentecostal wave that hit about 20 years ago ( maybe even longer ).
 
bobinfaith said:
Good morning, Major;

Here is another thought and I'm sure you and others can relate. I remember when the music ministry was a Church organ, piano or an acoustic guitar.

Has anyone noticed in many of today's music ministry worship services or a Christian music video, the praise bands are equipped with expensive sound systems, electric guitars, lighting system, multi microphones, electronic keyboards with sound effects, and a high end drum set with a drum screen for controlling sound? and etc...

Nobody gives it a thought and this musical equipment is very expensive. I've been told if the praise team doesn't have this luxury they cannot perform and would respond with, "well, the expensive equipment can be a blessing from God and help us play and sound better."

I've seen my share of praise teams with expensive equipment but the return would be a song with 3 or 4 chords maybe with catchy sound effects but an unbalanced sound. In many cases the song was not Scriptural, spirit filled or growth in the praise team's ability to expand.

As a pastor who sat in the budget meetings I may be prejudiced against requests for musical equipment and accessories because I am aware of the costs.

I used to lead praise and worship many times with just an acoustic guitar, lasting 15 minutes, and only 1, 3 or 50 members showed up on a Wednesday evening service. But at least my investment in my guitar paid off and the Church didn't pay for it.

I can agree to a limited investment for the Church's music ministry but the difference can be used for missions giving or benevolence. The leader of the praise team and at times the board would receive my suggestion with a disappointing look. But God always made a way for the Church's musical equipment needs but I still remember the outcome of their faces from the discussions for the music ministry.

God bless you all.

Bob
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YES...........I can and do relate! Been there and done that.

My answer was, if God gives you the talen to play an instrument He will also give the the instrument without the church having to pay for it.
 
In Awe of Him said:
I absolutely 100% agree with everything you have said here... EXCEPT for your point about music being manipulative. That part is just NOT registering with me... but I'm good... I have gleaned much from this thread BECAUSE it has given me a more compassionate view of caring for the "MAJORITY" (<<<<<<<<<<< I just punned you... HAHAHAHA ) which would be the senior members of a church. I absolutely agree 100% with RESPECT and ACCOMMODATING these precious and wise souls.

You are one person I will take the time to truly listen to... so thank you for responding to me... It matters to me.
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My dear sister...........We will not always agree with all things but if we agree on the basics, we will be in a good place.

What are the basics????.......There is a God.....He is good and He wants us to be saved from our sins through Christ!
 
Major said:
My dear sister...........We will not always agree with all things but if we agree on the basics, we will be in a good place. What are the basics????.......There is a God.....He is good and He wants us to be saved from our sins through Christ!
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Yes, agreeing on the basics, amen! Regarding disagreements, though Major always thinks he's cute, I disagree because I'm cuter. Otherwise, I'll take my marbles and go home!

🤜😎 lol!!!
 
sigh * we forget its the message yes i know its Bibibcal my chains are gone i been set free. Jesus said we are free indeed .i really feel its a generation gap we have .i note major saying the older tithe and support the Church. yes they do but i can take you to 2 different churches both use Contempary music in the service gma and gpa and the younger generation share the music .

and also the younger supports the Church with tithes and offerings .two i know of personally one is a first Baptist Church in town. the 2nd is a independent Baptist church 30 miles away. in town there there is 1st CHURCH OF GOD young old alike,

then on in the country another Church of God young and old share. the Church i pastor we use hymns . if i had some one that could sing few Contempary sings in the right manner. i would allow it. once again i am against replacing hymns for new Contempary . i am for combining the 2 done decently and in order . there are Contempary song of God and inspired of God
 
Major said:
Yes mamn........it is the accepted worship experience.
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I'll take your word for it... I remember seeing this many years ago... and was horrified. I think if I say more... my post will be removed... HA
However.... this is NOT WORSHIP in any way... shape or form. Perhaps demonic manifestations is a more accurate term. :D ( for the first time I see the purpose of this little green man who is about have a stroke. HAHAHAHA ).
 
Ok... so.... I feel the need to have "closing remarks" HAHA. ( not to close the thread but to close my thoughts ).

Here is what I have gleaned from this thread.

There is a generational divide in the church... I think us baby boomers are perhaps the majority at this time... and I absolutely agree that our elderly population must be respected and honoured. ( I have said this several times in my comments ).

There is also a difference in DEFINITION of what Worship is. This has been my concern. That some people are referring to and labelling Worship as something it is NOT. In my humble opinion... there is a clear biblical definition of what WORSHIP is. How we go about entering into a place of REVERENCE for God is optional (provided it does not go against scripture). That is where music style comes to play... old hymns vs. contemporary music. This is a PREFERENCE and will be guided by prior church experience = what people grew up with and were exposed to.

The abuse or misrepresentation of ANYTHING in Christianity is NOT counted as valid. Therefore... I agree there is much going on in this present day that falls into this category.... but my caution is this.... Do NOT confuse bad doctrine and teachings with music... and that is the difficult part to discern.

I have appreciated being part of this conversation. I have acquired a greater sensitivity to the older generation ( which probably includes myself. HAHA ).

I learned Worship from the contemporary music perspective... and so this is my preference and comfort in a church setting. I am 100% comfortable with this.

Anyone who approaches GOD with a pure heart and REVERENCE... with the mind to PRAISE and HONOUR GOD is participating in
Worship. If the old hymns bring you there... that is good.... If contemporary worship music brings you there... that is good. It is all PLEASING to GOD.

and that.... is my little two cents worth. :)
 
In Awe of Him said:
Ok... so.... I feel the need to have "closing remarks" HAHA. ( not to close the thread but to close my thoughts ).

Here is what I have gleaned from this thread.

There is a generational divide in the church... I think us baby boomers are perhaps the majority at this time... and I absolutely agree that our elderly population must be respected and honoured. ( I have said this several times in my comments ).

There is also a difference in DEFINITION of what Worship is. This has been my concern. That some people are referring to and labelling Worship as something it is NOT. In my humble opinion... there is a clear biblical definition of what WORSHIP is. How we go about entering into a place of REVERENCE for God is optional (provided it does not go against scripture). That is where music style comes to play... old hymns vs. contemporary music. This is a PREFERENCE and will be guided by prior church experience = what people grew up with and were exposed to.

The abuse or misrepresentation of ANYTHING in Christianity is NOT counted as valid. Therefore... I agree there is much going on in this present day that falls into this category.... but my caution is this.... Do NOT confuse bad doctrine and teachings with music... and that is the difficult part to discern.

I have appreciated being part of this conversation. I have acquired a greater sensitivity to the older generation ( which probably includes myself. HAHA ).

I learned Worship from the contemporary music perspective... and so this is my preference and comfort in a church setting. I am 100% comfortable with this.

Anyone who approaches GOD with a pure heart and REVERENCE... with the mind to PRAISE and HONOUR GOD is participating in
Worship. If the old hymns bring you there... that is good.... If contemporary worship music brings you there... that is good. It is all PLEASING to GOD.

and that.... is my little two cents worth. :)
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Good 2 cents.
 
In Awe of Him said:
I'll take your word for it... I remember seeing this many years ago... and was horrified. I think if I say more... my post will be removed... HA
However.... this is NOT WORSHIP in any way... shape or form. Perhaps demonic manifestations is a more accurate term. :D ( for the first time I see the purpose of this little green man who is about have a stroke. HAHAHAHA ).
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This just might be a reason for another thread on those worship practices that are called "Christian".

I have been in several of those events and I promise you that they are not Godly in any way.
 
Major said:
This just might be a reason for another thread. I have been in several of those events and I promise you that it is not Godly in any way.
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I would not be able to handle such a thread. I would get banned from the forums for my LACK of composure. HAHA.
I take false doctrine very seriously... and the WRATH and ANGER I feel towards these things is something I have to be
very careful with. I believe God has granted me great mercy and wisdom in being able to discern certain things.

So... If you decide to post another thread... I will have to read from a distance and with a muzzle and handcuffs. HAHAHA.
That is cause for my green friend to show up. :D
 
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