The Reason the Church is Floundering....

[crossnote]

You are 100% correct but the problem is that they are LOOKING for something to validate what they have been told when James is NOT saying anything different than what Paul said.

You can’t just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. Luther was saying that those works don’t add to that person’s justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man. James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works.

In other words.....our actions after we "say" we are saved is proven by what we actually "do".

Agreed. Just in case, I wasn't hinting at the false notion that one contradicts the other. That would be impossible, as the Holy Spirit won't contradict Himself... (IOW, I',m not about to call 'James' an Epistle of straw. lol)

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 

[forgiven61]

Since you can not find any of those Scriptures......here are a few------

Rom. 3:28-30......
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

Rom. 4:5..........
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”

Rom. 5:1.......
“therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Rom. 9:30......
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.“

Rom.. 10:4......
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Phil. 3:9...........
“and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

The point is that there are only two options.

1. We are saved by faith alone,
2. We are not.

Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone.

The problem then comes for those who want to accept good works is then based in James 2:24 and the misunderstanding of what James said.......
“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

James is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith.

James 2:23 says,............
“and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'”

If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith – not real faith – when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

THAT my "bro" is what I hold to!

why did you leave out romans chapter 3 justified by Grace ??????? i am not sure why you keep going back to works.. works follow salvation . but the Bible does not say the exact words Faith alone


24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: DO you think i am some one that crawled out from a rock ad have no idea what scriptures say ?
romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

yes justified by faith is in scripture but not faith alone its so we have 3 elements in being justified Blood Grace faith

The point is that there are only two options.

1. We are saved by faith alone,
2. We are not.

i am not buying into faith alone According to Martin Luther, justification by faith alone is the article on which the Church stands or falls. Thus, "faith alone" is foundational to Lutheranism and Reformed Christianity, and as a formula distinguishes it from other Christian denominations .. martin Luther was a good man but i am not agreeing with him on this statement. why would Paul write to the Ephesians saying saved by grace through faith. none of the scriptures you listed said faith alone . what Good is faith if Grace is not in it. the shedding of Blood for the remission of sins is Grace the divine favor of God we then accept this by faith this is why i asked if you all was reformed because this is how they stand, faith has to be given to us in order to believe. because all my hellish years with out Christ . i believed in the Bible , i simply rejected Christ i enjoyed the pleasures of sin for a season
i rest my case

 

[forgiven61]

I have no idea what "Easy there bro" means!

its expression easy there brother as to say lets not get things out of hand,

You said............
"i do ask not say my answers are redundant

the below is definition of the above redundant

not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.
"many of the old skills had become redundant" ·

so to say my replies are not needed or not useful is saying i am wrong..

i am not wrong when i use scripture
none of your replies will sway me over to faith alone which was invited by Luther i dont mean to be disrespectful i just aint going to agree faith is the key -- but not the saving element your welcome to try to prove me wrong . but do so by showing scripture with the exact words saved by faith alone . i have had this discussion many times BTW pardon my grammar

 

[forgiven61]

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

before you guys want to give me a lesson I UNDERSTAND WORKS

 

[Lanolin]

I don't agree with faith alone either, when it's clear that for as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is dead also as said in scripture. James 2:26

But then, perhaps Luther was reading the Latin Bible and got his words mixed up, as they talk about 'sola fide' which may even mean something else in Latin. Or maybe he didn't even have James's letter in his Bible.

Grace though faith yes, but faith just by itself...mmm I don't think so. I can't just IMAGINE myself to be a christian can I, or say I am one when I don't live or think like one. Abraham to show he believed God was going to sacrifice Isaac. Imagine if Abraham just said to God 'meh, I'm not going to give YOU my son' or what if Rahab has said to the spies sorry you can't stay here cos you are Israelites and just let them be captured. The faithlessness would be demonstrated by their actions, or rather, inactions.

 

[forgiven61]

I don't agree with faith alone either, when it's clear that for as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is dead also as said in scripture. James 2:26

But then, perhaps Luther was reading the Latin Bible and got his words mixed up, as they talk about 'sola fide' which may even mean something else in Latin. Or maybe he didn't even have James's letter in his Bible.

Grace though faith yes, but faith just by itself...mmm I don't think so. I can't just IMAGINE myself to be a christian can I, or say I am one when I don't live or think like one. Abraham to show he believed God was going to sacrifice Isaac. Imagine if Abraham just said to God 'meh, I'm not going to give YOU my son' or what if Rahab has said to the spies sorry you can't stay here cos you are Israelites and just let them be captured. The faithlessness would be demonstrated by their actions, or rather, inactions.

good point i am not a saved by faith alone yes the word believed and believes are used several times.. but Ephesians 2 is by far the most powerful by grace through faith mind this i dont know latin nor greek or hebrew only when i look up what words mean. i heard a evangelist say one time he preached on romans 10:10 with the heart man believes,, then the pastor said it didnt matter with how you believed. its has come from the heart . i have seen spiritual miscarriages' at the altar . it was from their own mind proverbs says there is a way that seems right but the end is death . i respect major and crossnote. they have been in it longer than me. but i will Will Not follow through in agreement of faith alone. when it is not scripture. this is a matter of interruption that falls into a doctrine issue

 

[crossnote]

I don't agree with faith alone either, when it's clear that for as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is dead also as said in scripture. James 2:26

Lanolin, The actual issue is on what basis is sinful man justified (declared righteous) before a Holy God. On our righteousness or on the righteousness of Jesus alone?

A rhetorical question with the obvious answer.

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin, The actual issue is on what basis is sinful man justified (declared righteous) before a Holy God. On our righteousness or on the righteousness of Jesus alone?

A rhetorical question with the obvious answer.

No its seems like a trick question, because faith or belief in Jesus is not alone!

Ok heres the thing, Jesus did everything right, he was perfect and sinless and absolutely right. Does this mean just because Jesus alone was totally right, does that mean sinful man is now righteous before a holy God?

Depends on how you word it. Jesus is the only name by which we can be saved, and that is true. We don't get ever get saved because Lanolin or Crossnote is such a good name.
But our faith in Jesus also means we demonstrate that by doing works, or righteous actions, and God sees this and does reward our obedience. It might be different for each person but it's usually something like we repent of whatever we have done wrong, and we work towards making it right. This can take a lifetime so its not instant but God will surely put us to the test of what we can do.

For example, the young rich ruler was told to sell all he had and give to the poor. I don't know if he did it, but if he believed in Jesus he would have obeyed and done it. Peter was told to feed my sheep, feed my lambs. We can see he did it. He even swallowed his pride and ate with the gentiles. The adulterous woman was told to 'sin no more'. She stopped sleeping around and followed Jesus (without seducing him!) and learned scripture.

 

[crossnote]

Ok heres the thing, Jesus did everything right, he was perfect and sinless and absolutely right. Does this mean just because Jesus alone was totally right, does that mean sinful man is now righteous before a holy God?

Through faith in Jesus, yes. That is the essence of the Gospel…

Romans 4:5
[5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

But our faith in Jesus also means we demonstrate that by doing works, or righteous actions, and God sees this and does reward our obedience.

But that’s not our justification, you’re touching on sanctification. Besides, how much good works must we do until we are accepted by God?

It might be different for each person but it's usually something like we repent of whatever we have done wrong, and we work towards making it right. This can take a lifetime so its not instant but God will surely put us to the test of what we can do.

Actually it’s the same Gospel for all…

John 3:15-17 KJV
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

As far as ‘working things out to make them right’…

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For example, the young rich ruler was told to sell all he had and give to the poor. I don't know if he did it, but if he believed in Jesus he would have obeyed and done it.

If the rich young ruler had stuck around to follow Jesus, he would have heard this conversation…

Mark 10:22-27 KJV
[22] And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. [23] And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! [24] And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! [25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. [26] And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? [27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 

[Lanolin]

So it's not Jesus alone, its God (Father) and the Holy spirit, its 3 of them all working together right? You can't call that being alone...

 

[forgiven61]

Who then can be saved? [27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

yes sir it is true but Grace is the saving Element faith is the key to that Grace paul wrote

Titus 2:11​

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

my point in discussion is no where is faith used in these scriptures .but it is THROUGH faith but not faith alone i can only go by solo scriptures

 

[Major]

So it's not Jesus alone, its God (Father) and the Holy spirit, its 3 of them all working together right? You can't call that being alone...

True......but Jesus, the Son The Father and the Holy Sprit are all one n the same so your question is as crossnote stated...redundant.

 

[Major]

I don't agree with faith alone either, when it's clear that for as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is dead also as said in scripture. James 2:26

But then, perhaps Luther was reading the Latin Bible and got his words mixed up, as they talk about 'sola fide' which may even mean something else in Latin. Or maybe he didn't even have James's letter in his Bible.

Grace though faith yes, but faith just by itself...mmm I don't think so. I can't just IMAGINE myself to be a christian can I, or say I am one when I don't live or think like one. Abraham to show he believed God was going to sacrifice Isaac. Imagine if Abraham just said to God 'meh, I'm not going to give YOU my son' or what if Rahab has said to the spies sorry you can't stay here cos you are Israelites and just let them be captured. The faithlessness would be demonstrated by their actions, or rather, inactions.

You just stated what has been said........"Works come from Faith". Works is the by-product of salvation.

Because a man is saved, he will have the love of God in his heart to do good things for others.

 

[forgiven61]

True......but Jesus, the Son The Father and the Holy Sprit are all one n the same so your question is as crossnote stated...redundant.

one but separate i joined this forum it was different than any i had been in. i am starting to see not much different. when a person uses the word redundant not needed not useful. in essence it is saying everyone else is wrong and your right

 

[forgiven61]

You just stated what has been said........"Works come from Faith". Works is the by-product of salvation.

Because a man is saved, he will have the love of God in his heart to do good things for others.

yes but she is not saying saved by faith alone . which is a man made doctrine with no scripture to back it up.

 

[Major]

its expression easy there brother as to say lets not get things out of hand,


the below is definition of the above redundant


so to say my replies are not needed or not useful is saying i am wrong..

i am not wrong when i use scripture
none of your replies will sway me over to faith alone which was invited by Luther i dont mean to be disrespectful i just aint going to agree faith is the key -- but not the saving element your welcome to try to prove me wrong . but do so by showing scripture with the exact words saved by faith alone . i have had this discussion many times BTW pardon my grammar

"Things" never get out of hand when the Scriptures are debated. It is always the attitude of those debating that comes into play when others do not agree with their opinions.

I hope that you understand that I will not argue this point with you and if you choose to believe that works somehow play a part in your salvation then praise God!!!!

However.....you can not do that and say that it comes from the Scriptures.

Now the real debate needs to be the correct understanding o0f the words......."Justification and Sanctification".

Justification is the legal act of being declared NOT GUILITY. That act can only be done by God. We are Justified at the moment we accept Christ.

Regeneration is the new birth, sanctification is the growth that necessarily results from it. Sanctification is the root of good works. Justification is God’s declaration that a believing sinner is righteous because of the merits of Christ imputed to him. Sanctification is the believer leaving the courtroom where God has once and for all time declared him righteous, and immediately beginning the process whereby God’s Spirit enables him to increasingly conform to Christ’s righteousness, both inwardly and outwardly.

Jonathan Edwards said of the Christian’s inevitable desire for sanctification.......
“‘Tis as much the nature of one that is spiritually new born, to thirst after growth in holiness, as ‘tis the nature of a newborn babe, to thirst after the mother’s breast.”

The process is progressive, but is never completed in this life. Sanctification is ultimately fulfilled in glorification.

We have nothing to do with Justification as it is the product of faith alone in Christ. If it is not then you must remove Ephesians 2:8-9 from your Bible!!!!!!

We then have everything to do with Sanctification. We can choose to ignore the calling of God to do what He wants us to do and live in the life of GREAST GRACE and slide by on the skin of our teeth. The problem with that is the "loss of REWARDS" that come on the day we stand before Christ to give an account of what we did and did not do in our lives.

 

[Major]

one but separate i joined this forum it was different than any i had been in. i am starting to see not much different. when a person uses the word redundant not needed not useful. in essence it is saying everyone else is wrong and your right

My dear brother. Please do not worry about me being right or you being wrong. We have different opinions on what the Scriptures say. Focus on that.

That is just an easy way to explain away concerns.

Could it be that there is something other than the forums in play ??????

 

[Major]

yes but she is not saying saved by faith alone . which is a man made doctrine with no scripture to back it up.

I do not for the life of me understand the thought behind that comment. Is Ephesians 2:8-9 right or is it wrong.......
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

NOT OF WORKS!

 

[forgiven61]

Could it be that there is something other than the forums in play ??????

dont play tip toe through the tulips speak it what you mean.. i will speak my part plainly the phrase saved by faith alone is not scripture. not found no where in the bible. its a man made doctrine created by luther in which many calvinist hold to. this is discussion not a time to use redundant

 

[forgiven61]

NOT OF WORKS!

are you hung up on works ? Ephesians 2:8-9 is %100 correct .have a good day i have church this morning with a lady singing.. i dont have time for this .