Could you be a cult leader?

[Major]

I have found these also can come under the influence of a 'chasmatic-cult like' leader due to the lack of proper oversight.

That has been my experience as well.

In the ones I have participated in.......when those leaders were corrected for what they were saying by the words of Scripture, then began the "contest" of who is right. It was always.......
"Well, God has spoken to me and I believe what He said to ME".

 

[Major]

Yes, and we don't have the authority (the Apostles) as the first followers had and subtle hucksters and loud mouths can take over if emotions become the guiding factor.

Agreed. Those "subtle hucksters and loud mouths" as you suggest have learned that there is money to be made at the expense of the souls of others.

 

[Major]

Hello D3v;

You asked, are we in a cult like group, made me think for myself.

We worked hard to find the right candidate to succeed me as our next lead pastor. These last three months I've had a deep embedded frustration over the way our new pastor is transitioning with the members in our church. Only a few key members have brought up their frustrations as well.

I feel I'm not open to change in our church and perhaps I want him to keep things the way they were when I was pastoring. I have never had someone take my place as a pastor so this is new territory. Still, in my heart this is not good.

My question to God is, could this be cultic on my part?

Been there and done that!

That is the very reason why most retireing pastors do not stay in the church that they retire from.

 

[D3vot3d2G0d]

 

[Lanolin]

?

I copy and paste scriptures so ppl can read them.... I don't post what other people post.
Some people are always posting you-tubes of other preachers or other teachers. Not sure why, because a lot of clips don't show the scriptures in full, it's always sound bites of this and that.

You didn't get the scriptures from Lanolin...you can all get them from the Bible.
I'm more into discussion of the scriptures (seeing if things are so) rather than teaching. It's a tremendous responsibility to be a teacher. You have to get it right if you are a teacher cos your students would be following your every word, you don't want to lead them astray or into dead ends. They don't know everything you know...students expect their teacher to have some authority on the subject they are teaching.

 

[crossnote]

View attachment 7083

What Friends?

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello D3v;
You asked, are we in a cult like group, made me think for myself.
We worked hard to find the right candidate to succeed me as our next lead pastor. These last three months I've had a deep embedded frustration over the way our new pastor is transitioning with the members in our church. Only a few key members have brought up their frustrations as well.
I feel I'm not open to change in our church and perhaps I want him to keep things the way they were when I was pastoring. I have never had someone take my place as a pastor so this is new territory. Still, in my heart this is not good.
My question to God is, could this be cultic on my part?

Been there and done that!
That is the very reason why most retireing pastors do not stay in the church that they retire from.

Hello Major;

I should have pm'd you about this some time ago. You're the 3rd pastor (retired) to say that.

My Elder and I had a very good meeting yesterday with our Pastor and shared my decision with him.

 

[Major]

Hello Major;

I should have pm'd you about this some time ago. You're the 3rd pastor (retired) to say that.

My Elder and I had a very good meeting yesterday with our Pastor and shared my decision with him.

The man who replaced me is a good friend of mine. We went to Seminary together and I actually married him and his wife. He insisted that I stay as a Pastor Emeritus and we have had no problems.

But......In every case when someone has come to me and said......."We have not done it this way before"---
I have said to them, well it is the way that the Pastor wants to do it NOW! What was done was not wrong and what is being done is not therefor right......Just different!

Change is neither good nor bad..........Only Inevitable!

 

[rtm3039]

A couple of years ago, we had a change in leadership. Our lead pastor (Pastor Rick) handed over his position to the new pastor (Pastor Omar). Rick is still with the church, but he is now what they call a "Teaching Pastor" and delivers the message maybe once every couple of months.

He still attends church services but likes to sit either on the stairs leading to the balcony or behind the curtains leading to the offices. The logic behind this is that he knows how popular he is (25 year at the church) and does not want his physical presence to distract Pastor Omar's message.

Rtm

 

[Lanolin]

Pastors are different from teachers actually I think they are separate roles.
pastors (shepherds) look after the sheep, but don't necessarily teach, while teachers teach, but dont' necessarily do the looking after part.
Of course, in some churches the roles are combined.

But think it takes more energy to do that when pastors and teachers can actually work together. You'll aways need more teachers and pastors (not just one, its harder to actually teach a big bunch of people at all different levels)

I don't really know how churches work when there's only one pastor who can't reach all their congregation at once unless its a very small church.
It would be kind of like having a school where the Principal also teaches the entire school and there is only ONE class lol.

 

[Via dolarossa]

it must be pretty hard as a retired leader. I know my employer, who has retired, and wants to tale a back seat in the directors chair,, actually still gets told what goes on in our workplace. I dont know if its a good thing to inform her, because, if she's retired, then she is officially out of it. But at the same time, wouldn't she want to know where her business is headed?

its a tough one, and I empathise, because, kinda like, a mother who, when her kids reach adult age, has done the work of bringing her children up, but still wants and needs to know that they are still walking in a straight line.

 

[rtm3039]

it must be pretty hard as a retired leader. I know my employer, who has retired, and wants to tale a back seat in the directors chair,, actually still gets told what goes on in our workplace. I dont know if its a good thing to inform her, because, if she's retired, then she is officially out of it. But at the same time, wouldn't she want to know where her business is headed?

its a tough one, and I empathise, because, kinda like, a mother who, when her kids reach adult age, has done the work of bringing her children up, but still wants and needs to know that they are still walking in a straight line.

I hear you.

When I first applied to work with our school district, I applied for a position as an investigator. During my interview, I was asked if I thought I could handle being "just an investigator." My reply was that I had been in a supervisory position since 1986 and just wanted to end my career as "one of the guys." That was in May 2019. By July 2020, I had been asked, and accepted, the position of Executive Director. Now I am back at working 7 days a week eating stress like chocolate bunnies.

 

[rtm3039]

Pastors are different from teachers actually I think they are separate roles.
pastors (shepherds) look after the sheep, but don't necessarily teach, while teachers teach, but dont' necessarily do the looking after part.
Of course, in some churches the roles are combined.

But think it takes more energy to do that when pastors and teachers can actually work together. You'll aways need more teachers and pastors (not just one, its harder to actually teach a big bunch of people at all different levels)

I don't really know how churches work when there's only one pastor who can't reach all their congregation at once unless its a very small church.
It would be kind of like having a school where the Principal also teaches the entire school and there is only ONE class lol.

That's how we roll in Christ Fellowship. We have 7 campuses and each campus has a campus pastor. Services are held live at the main campus and broadcasted to the other six campuses.

At the main campus, we have our lead pastor, an executive pastor, several teaching pastors and a campus pastor. We also have visiting pastors that come by once a quarter. All of them take turns giving the message; however, the lead pastor does it more often.

Pastor Rick is also involved in something called " Leading from the Pulpit" which teacher High Impact Expository Preaching in collaboration with Wheaton Collage.

 

[Via dolarossa]

I hear you.

When I first applied to work with our school district, I applied for a position as an investigator. During my interview, I was asked if I thought I could handle being "just an investigator." My reply was that I had been in a supervisory position since 1986 and just wanted to end my career as "one of the guys." That was in May 2019. By July 2020, I had been asked, and accepted, the position of Executive Director. Now I am back at working 7 days a week eating stress like chocolate bunnies.

oh dear, I mistook your enjoyment of your job as investigator as a sign you enjoyed overtime.

Some people I know complain( and I was once one of them) that, "those in high places" get paid too much money for doing very little of the workload.

Only after I realised that they get that much money because they pay out more for healthcare because of stress. Thats why I give my boss some slack.

I dont envy your job, even though its touted as glamorous in the movies.

 

[Via dolarossa]

What are the criterias for these groups,who twist the scriptures to fit THEIR mold?

I dont know about the criteria for groups who only twist scriptures to fit their mold, but I do like I like Rick Ross definition of
unsafe leaders/groups who pose a threat to people due to their behaviour:

​

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.​

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.​

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.​

1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

 

[rtm3039]

oh dear, I mistook your enjoyment of your job as investigator as a sign you enjoyed overtime.

Some people I know complain( and I was once one of them) that, "those in high places" get paid too much money for doing very little of the workload.

Only after I realised that they get that much money because they pay out more for healthcare because of stress. Thats why I give my boss some slack.

I dont envy your job, even though its touted as glamorous in the movies.

It's only glamorous on TV. In reality you only come upon people when they are at their worst. For every 10 minutes of excitement, there is an hour of paperwork. No matter what you do, someone will not be happy. Best of all, if it makes it to court, you show up with a large target right on your forehead. Aside from that, it is pretty cool.

 

[Lanolin]

Is investigator like a school inspector?

I wonder if there are 'church inspectors' as such. I know both churches and schools have boards to keep them accountable. But sometimes the boards are made up of select group of people that are the same all the time, and it can get cliquey.

 

[Via dolarossa]

Is investigator like a school inspector?

I wonder if there are 'church inspectors' as such. I know both churches and schools have boards to keep them accountable. But sometimes the boards are made up of select group of people that are the same all the time, and it can get cliquey.

That's a good question. One that ties in well with this thread.
Unsafe groups/leaders normally have obvious red flags , but for some vunerable people, they somehow miss them due to some kind of trauma/ or need.

I do know some people who investigates these groups and publishes their findings. Spiritual abuse is horrific. Maybe you could call them "Church inspectors" lol

 

[rtm3039]

Is investigator like a school inspector?

I wonder if there are 'church inspectors' as such. I know both churches and schools have boards to keep them accountable. But sometimes the boards are made up of select group of people that are the same all the time, and it can get cliquey.

I don't know how it's done with every school district in the country, but we do have a great deal of oversight. Professional conduct is managed by our Office of Professional Standards (OPS). They have three investigative resources: My office (CIU) investigates allegation of serious District policies. The General Investigative Unit (GIU) is part of the district's police department, and they investigate allegations of criminal misconduct. Lastly, we have the Civil Rights Compliance Office (CRC). They investigate allegations of discrimination based on protected categories (color, race, gender, religious affiliation, etc).

Additional oversight is performed by the Office of Management and Compliance Audits, the Inspector General, and the Florida Department of Education.

I am unsure what type of oversight churches deal with. We have a board, but I know little else. I try not to get involve with the business end of a church.

 

[rtm3039]

oh dear, I mistook your enjoyment of your job as investigator as a sign you enjoyed overtime.

Some people I know complain( and I was once one of them) that, "those in high places" get paid too much money for doing very little of the workload.

Only after I realised that they get that much money because they pay out more for healthcare because of stress. Thats why I give my boss some slack.

I dont envy your job, even though its touted as glamorous in the movies.

Hm. I just re-read our comment about overtime.

Since I am a salaried employee, I don't get overtime or comp time. If I did, not sure the school could afford it

It is totally the other way around with my investigators. As part of their union contract, they can't be asked to work 1 minute past their schedule, without either overtime or comp time. My guys work from 7am to 3pm. If I were to send them an e-mail at 3:01pm on a Friday and told them the world was ending Monday morning, they would not read the e-mail until Monday morning. They do not answer their phone after 3pm, return text messages, or anything else.

Rtm