On Richness and Poverty

[KingJ]

kJ
1. YOU JUDGE far too much in things you have no knowledge of. Do you know what this rich Christian does with his money ?

2.You do not get blessed like this by God with out be a giver and you give where God directs. The fact that you refuse call this man a Christian is something you will stand before the Father with. That is all yours.

3. Your view on what certain scriptures says is from a human point of understanding with NO real spiritual insight what so ever.

4.You will not ever receive any understanding in this area for your heart is already made up and is now become way side to true biblical prosperity.

God bless you Kj and hey how about you giving the funds the orphans need there.

1. I do know that many are boastful pompus self indulging gluttons...who occasionally give to keep their position and conscience at bay. I like calling a spade a spade. The reality of Christianity is sadly flying completely over their head.

2. Why do you see carnal treasures as God's blessing? Who says I am not calling them Christians? If they not against us they are for us.

3. You are talking to me about spiritual insight when you are proposing I seek after the lusts of the flesh? That is a joke Jim .

4. Yes, my mind and heart is made up Jim. You are right on that. There are many Christian organizations all over the world that need our help. There are many orphanages all over the world that need our help. I hate helping lazy adults. I agree that God relieves us from poverty. That is Christianity 101. I am not proposing we help all the poor either.

But can we just face.....REALITY? A Christian ''''should''' have a '''greater''' desire....and '''insurmountable''' desire to....donate to ''Arabs for Jesus'' over excessive self indulgence...?

Yes, the US is financially blessed by God. Yes God looks after us, well. No, we should not buy a Porsche over a Toyota when there are real needs out there. If a Christian does not meet these needs, who will?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Kj we are not going to agree so lets just say God bless You brother and move on.
So are you still building the kit cars ?
Bless you my friend
jim

 

[KingJ]

1. No one has said pastors are above reproach
2. Pastors having nice things is not lust of the flesh
3. You said a Christian who drives a fancy car is no christian at all.
4. Ok scriptures says to do these things.........so we must become poor our selves to do so or give back what God gave us because it is not Godly to have it for others need.

5. Brother I used to be bothered when I got blessed and others around me did not. Then God set me free. I should not ever be ashmaed of what He has done for me or hide it. I should ware His blessings joyfully giving Him all the glory.

6. Stop ASSUMING that those who have fancy things have not given. This is simply something you are pushing and have no grounds to work with.
Blessings KJ
Jim

Ok Jim, this is my last comment to you then.

1. But then you must stop saying I can't judge them.

2. How so? Aren't pastors extra accountable? Supposed to lead by example?

3. Yes, but look at the context. I said ''whilst driving past an orphanage battling to feed kids''. I stick by that if that is their heart and all the factors to it.

4. No. Of course we must not be poor. We must invest and save. We must keep for our kids. We must put our kids through good schools. The heart of the argument is that if we want to spoil ourselves. How is a Ferrari = a Christian spoiling themselves? Donating to an orphanage = Christian spoiling themselves. Then of course there is that regular contribution we can also commit to if we are able.

5. How does driving a Ferrari give Him glory? Us being boastful gives Him glory?

6. How exactly are our hearts not in things / world if we surround ourselves with fancy ''things''?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Ok Jim, this is my last comment to you then.

1. But then you must stop saying I can't judge them.

2. How so? Aren't pastors extra accountable? Supposed to lead by example?

3. Yes, but look at the context. I said ''whilst driving past an orphanage battling to feed kids''. I stick by that if that is their heart and all the factors to it.

4. No. Of course we must not be poor. We must invest and save. We must keep for our kids. We must put our kids through good schools. The heart of the argument is that if we want to spoil ourselves. How is a Ferrari = a Christian spoiling themselves? Donating to an orphanage = Christian spoiling themselves. Then of course there is that regular contribution we can also commit to if we are able.

5. How does driving a Ferrari give Him glory? Us being boastful gives Him glory?

6. How exactly are our hearts not in things / world if we surround ourselves with fancy ''things''?

1 The word of God tells us NOT to Judge others

2 so they lead by teaching and teaching that we do not have to live in poverty or lack and can have nice or fancy things.

3 So should he drive another way and not pass by the oprhanage ? How much is required to give? If the man was blessed by God then he has been giving or planting seed. Is he the only one in this earth that can give ? How many times have you driven past some one in need and kept right on driving ? Just saying.

4 haveing a Ferrari neither takes away or is spoiling them selves. If the man can afford a Ferrari then dont you think perhaps he has given a Ferrari sized gift many times ?
You say the normal contribution we can give if we are able.....Why place this able part in this? Does this mean if not able then you do not have enough to offer or give? Hmm kind of like placing the buck on the other fellow.

5 We boast in what the Lord has done not in our selves. God takes a man from the dung piles to CEO of a huge company.......should this be kept quiet ? Boasting or bragging or Glorying about something is only wrong when we do it of our selves as if we did it or earned it etc. But when we give all the Glory unto God then why say this is wrong ?

6 If our hearts are towards God first then other things. God is first and His ways are first.
I lived in a old ford conversion van for some time and gave God glory for everything I got. I then got a job working for a man who had a horse farm and raced these thoroughbreads. The Blessing of the Lord came on me and I began to prosper where these horses are concerned and began to know and do things thast only seasoned horse trainers would know.

I moved right up the chain so to speak and had a brand new fancy business coat with the horses and logo on it given to me where my friend and others that had been there for years never got. Was I in sin to wear this coat and be honored and proud of it ? NO sir it was a gift from God.

I then got a offered a raise within 6 months or so and had my choice of MONEY or to live free and clear in this new farm house he just bought with barn etc. Awesome FANCY HOUSE.
I took the house for it sure looked better then the old van. My friend and other workers who had been there longer did not get this offer or anything Like it... So was I wrong to be happy and take it ?

Gid will give you what ever you need and He does not nor will He ever be limited to what we can afford. If I need a new suit and trust God for it I might get one of those 500 dollar suits that almost look wet in the light if that is what I enjoy. But from what I gather from your posting I would not have any business with a 500 dollar suit when I could have bought a 50 dollar one and gave 450 dollars to the poor.

If God wanted me to have a 50 dollar suit and give 450 dollars to the poor then He would have given me a 50 dollar suit and 450 dollars. OBTW no I do not have a 500 dollar suit but then again I do not have any suits any more. lol

Are you seeing wehat I am saying here KJ ?
Blessings
Jim

 

[Abdicate]

1 The word of God tells us NOT to Judge others

2 so they lead by teaching and teaching that we do not have to live in poverty or lack and can have nice or fancy things.

3 So should he drive another way and not pass by the oprhanage ? How much is required to give? If the man was blessed by God then he has been giving or planting seed. Is he the only one in this earth that can give ? How many times have you driven past some one in need and kept right on driving ? Just saying.

4 haveing a Ferrari neither takes away or is spoiling them selves. If the man can afford a Ferrari then dont you think perhaps he has given a Ferrari sized gift many times ?
You say the normal contribution we can give if we are able.....Why place this able part in this? Does this mean if not able then you do not have enough to offer or give? Hmm kind of like placing the buck on the other fellow.

5 We boast in what the Lord has done not in our selves. God takes a man from the dung piles to CEO of a huge company.......should this be kept quiet ? Boasting or bragging or Glorying about something is only wrong when we do it of our selves as if we did it or earned it etc. But when we give all the Glory unto God then why say this is wrong ?

6 If our hearts are towards God first then other things. God is first and His ways are first.
I lived in a old ford conversion van for some time and gave God glory for everything I got. I then got a job working for a man who had a horse farm and raced these thoroughbreads. The Blessing of the Lord came on me and I began to prosper where these horses are concerned and began to know and do things thast only seasoned horse trainers would know.

I moved right up the chain so to speak and had a brand new fancy business coat with the horses and logo on it given to me where my friend and others that had been there for years never got. Was I in sin to wear this coat and be honored and proud of it ? NO sir it was a gift from God.

I then got a offered a raise within 6 months or so and had my choice of MONEY or to live free and clear in this new farm house he just bought with barn etc. Awesome FANCY HOUSE.
I took the house for it sure looked better then the old van. My friend and other workers who had been there longer did not get this offer or anything Like it... So was I wrong to be happy and take it ?

Gid will give you what ever you need and He does not nor will He ever be limited to what we can afford. If I need a new suit and trust God for it I might get one of those 500 dollar suits that almost look wet in the light if that is what I enjoy. But from what I gather from your posting I would not have any business with a 500 dollar suit when I could have bought a 50 dollar one and gave 450 dollars to the poor.

If God wanted me to have a 50 dollar suit and give 450 dollars to the poor then He would have given me a 50 dollar suit and 450 dollars. OBTW no I do not have a 500 dollar suit but then again I do not have any suits any more. lol

Are you seeing wehat I am saying here KJ ?
Blessings
Jim

I have two $450 suits... I also have a very nice ruby ring. My avatar is a necklace I drew on a napkin and took it to a jeweler in Kuwait. He made it for me, and one for my wife. 100% unique and only two in the world. I love red, and all the rubies I ever saw were dull looking. So I ask the Lord if ever He wanted me to have one, it needed to look like a diamond. I didn't know they existed. One day I was waiting for my wife to finish her window shopping and I saw it. A beautiful shimmering Pigeon Blood Burmese ruby. I bought it, put 12 diamonds around it and had it set on gold ring. I look at it and it reminds me of the love of the Father to have put this in the ground and made it for me over the time it took to grow and find it's way to me. I look at it and think of the blood shed for me by His Son, and 12 diamonds around it. 12 is considered a perfect number symbolizing God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. I am exceedingly blessed and I boast of it. Why? Because I had to sell the stamps I had to get the gas to drive to the interview for this job 22 years ago. I know what it's like to be on food stamps and pray for just that little extra to get milk for my children. I was $110,000 in credit card debt because I lost my job. Once I got this job I worked hard to get where I am and I've been obedient to the Lord Who has blessed me mightily. Now I have zero debt. To many I am very rich, to others not so much. But I do have great riches in the Lord Jesus! And for that I boast in the Lord Who has blessed me. Let whomever judge me as they see fit, but know this, all I have is because of the Lord! Take it up with Him.

 

[KingJ]

1 The word of God tells us NOT to Judge others

1 Cor 5:12

But from what I gather from your posting I would not have any business with a 500 dollar suit when I could have bought a 50 dollar one and gave 450 dollars to the poor.

This is the essence of what I am saying, yes. We don't always practice it of course. God is bugging me daily over the car I drive. It is a little too sporty / flashy to me these days.

I see Christians at my church that love Jesus but are battling. Not with food, clothing or a roof, but rather with that ''extra'' provision as you say.

The one newly wed couple for example can't afford their own place. So they stay in a small room at a Christians house almost free of charge. Now if I had to say upgrade my car, knowing what I know....I wouldn't be able to face them and rightly so wouldn't you say? Fellow Christians are our brothers and sisters. That I would sooner spoil my blood siblings over my Christian siblings is wrong. Then, why do I not feel the same for orphans? That is what I am pushing. I am 100% guilty if this Jim. I am no saint on this at all. But I think we all just need to admit that that is Christianity and many of us are failing.

 

[KingJ]

4 haveing a Ferrari neither takes away or is spoiling them selves. If the man can afford a Ferrari then dont you think perhaps he has given a Ferrari sized gift many times ?

If we give 1000 ferrari sized gifts we should still not desire our own ferrari though. A ferrari sized gift for us ''should'' be ''feeding an orphan''.

That fancy suit should not be our hearts desire. Think it through. Why would we desire a fancy suit? Albeit a gift. I can honestly see no reason other then carnal pleasure from and for it.

We are all guilty of pursuing and hording carnal treasures. When we have them they do cause pride. Not they ''may''. They '''doooo''' .

 

[aha]

i think it is not about living richness or not about living poverty...

i think what am trying to say: a blessed man is happy is he, and who do not worry....

More on this verses....

Romans 14:22King James Version (KJV)
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Matthew 6:33-34New King James Version (NKJV)
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

 

[Euphemia]

I personally think people misuse scriptures such as: "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you as well." And, "delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of you heart." If you are seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness and delighting yourself in Him, will you REALLY be thinking about and desiring worldly things like sports cars, jewellery and mansions to live in?

I think you are thinking correctly, here. If we are truly seeking after the righteousness of God and delighting in Him and His word, our desires will fall in line with His will, anyway. He gives us those desires and He enjoys fulfilling them.

 

[Euphemia]

If we give 1000 ferrari sized gifts we should still not desire our own ferrari though. A ferrari sized gift for us ''should'' be ''feeding an orphan''.

That fancy suit should not be our hearts desire. Think it through. Why would we desire a fancy suit? Albeit a gift. I can honestly see no reason other then carnal pleasure from and for it.

We are all guilty of pursuing and hording carnal treasures. When we have them they do cause pride. Not they ''may''. They '''doooo''' .

We are not saying that our desires are for these things, but GOD'S desire is to give us good things. My pastor is excellent with money and people actually have gone to him for advice about finances over the years and he really helps them. He has instituted classes about personal finances that honour God because of the many people that have come to him over the years. He drove an Audi TT one year, and a beautiful BMW another year, but did he seek them out? No. He did find them on a used car lot with a price that was amazingly suited to the budget he had set aside for them. He wanted a nice car, just as anyone does, and God brought him some nice cars over the years, and at some wonderfully low prices. The same goes for the houses he has lived in. Brand new and amazingly cheap and affordable. Why? Because God is pleased to give His children more than they can even think of to ask for!

Ephesians 3:20
Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.

 

[KingJ]

We are not saying that our desires are for these things, but GOD'S desire is to give us good things. My pastor is excellent with money and people actually have gone to him for advice about finances over the years and he really helps them. He has instituted classes about personal finances that honour God because of the many people that have come to him over the years. He drove an Audi TT one year, and a beautiful BMW another year, but did he seek them out? No. He did find them on a used car lot with a price that was amazingly suited to the budget he had set aside for them. He wanted a nice car, just as anyone does, and God brought him some nice cars over the years, and at some wonderfully low prices. The same goes for the houses he has lived in. Brand new and amazingly cheap and affordable. Why? Because God is pleased to give His children more than they can even think of to ask for!

Ephesians 3:20
Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.

That, I am fine with. A new BMW is almost modest these days. Second hand is definitely. I am harping on two people:

1. The person that thinks buying a Ferrari > Toyota plus helping an orphan for life.
2. The person that thinks having the best outfit, car and house does not cause pride.

 

[Euphemia]

That, I am fine with. A new BMW is almost modest these days. Second hand is definitely. I am harping on two people:

1. The person that thinks buying a Ferrari > Toyota plus helping an orphan for life.
2. The person that thinks having the best outfit, car and house does not cause pride.

1. Who on earth thinks that?
2. Those who do not have pride in their material possessions, and is grateful and thankful to God for His over-the-top provision do not merit your judgment. It's a heart issue, and unless you are personally and miraculously familiar with every heart out there, you need to rein in your judgment of people in general.

 

[KingJ]

1. Who on earth thinks that?
2. Those who do not have pride in their material possessions, and is grateful and thankful to God for His over-the-top provision do not merit your judgment. It's a heart issue, and unless you are personally and miraculously familiar with every heart out there, you need to rein in your judgment of people in general.

1. Every Christian that buys a Ferrari?

2. Explain to me how owning over the top items do not cause pride / are not from pride?

All I have heard is '' I have one and that was a gift''. Well that is not answering my question. Saying I am judging others is also not helping. I am not exempt here. Though I am not a pastor that should know better either. But I guess no Christian has an excuse really.

 

[/]

I read this thread title and I thought of Fiddler on the Roof - If I Were a Rich Man.

 

[Ravindran]

Basically God doesn't want us to suffer so He will not put us in these situations.
If we are poor perhaps God feels it isn't time for us to have wealth yet.
I like to think of it as a test of faith. When one is poor, you tent to find a greater strength of faith; when one is wealthy the faith in some not all cases takes a back seat.
I was saying it was a test.

Amen brother..

Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose.

What we see here is all things work together for good. Does not mean all things are good. All "things" work together for good.. be it richness or poorness.. When our heart is right with God, we know it is all for good. As long as our heart is right with God though!!

 

[aha]

1. The person that thinks buying a Ferrari > Toyota plus helping an orphan for life.

Can I convert it to a general statement? that is: if the conversion to general statement is wrong, the rest is will be a misunderstanding on my part….

General statement: One who spend excessively when a brother is in need.

I would agree but we need to define what is excessive spending…

Question:
a. Is buying something is excessive spending when one can easily afford it?
b. Or, is excessive spending in itself is not a Christian thing to do?

 

[KingJ]

Can I convert it to a general statement? that is: if the conversion to general statement is wrong, the rest is will be a misunderstanding on my part….

General statement: One who spend excessively when a brother is in need.

I would agree but we need to define what is excessive spending…

Question:
a. Is buying something is excessive spending when one can easily afford it?
b. Or, is excessive spending in itself is not a Christian thing to do?

a. No.
b. Yes. Excessive spending on self can only be translated as vanity. How is it not? Vanity and Christianity are supposed to be night and day.

 

[Arrie03]

Jim, my issue here is not that a Christian/pastor is wealthy it is how he/she uses the wealth that the Lord gave him. It is a stewardship issue, thus a heart issue. God gives us wealth so we have more to give away/help others, not to use it selfishly on ourselves. It is one thing for a Christian to own fancy things and a whole other matter to buy/acquire them himself. Just because a Christian has fancy things does not necessarily mean that he bought them himself and is using it for his pleasure. It could have been given it to him by others or that he using it selflessly. What I DO have a problem with is when a Christian buys/acquires fancy/expensive things himself....to be used for his own pleasure. Let's take the example of a Christian man that buys a Ferrari, a Rolex watch, an Armani suit and $10,000,000 house. He could have just as easily bought a Volkswagen, a Seiko watch, a $300 suit and a $500,000 house and used all the money he saved to give to those in need.
You can't tell me that God would not be far more pleased with the man doing this than spending that same money on luxuries, REGARDLESS of how much he may be giving to those in need.

Eish... Drive a VW. I'd rather walk. [emoji1]
I must admit, I do not see why A Christian should amass $130,000,000 in personal wealth. That said we cannot judge another man's heart.
I would not know how much the minister driving that fancy Range Rover gave in return. Maybe he has already given four times the value of that car, who knows. But why required for a minister to have a massively expensive ferrari, good question. Those items speak of image and image speak only of self.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

1 Cor 5:12
This is the essence of what I am saying, yes. We don't always practice it of course. God is bugging me daily over the car I drive. It is a little too sporty / flashy to me these days.

I see Christians at my church that love Jesus but are battling. Not with food, clothing or a roof, but rather with that ''extra'' provision as you say.

The one newly wed couple for example can't afford their own place. So they stay in a small room at a Christians house almost free of charge. Now if I had to say upgrade my car, knowing what I know....I wouldn't be able to face them and rightly so wouldn't you say? Fellow Christians are our brothers and sisters. That I would sooner spoil my blood siblings over my Christian siblings is wrong. Then, why do I not feel the same for orphans? That is what I am pushing. I am 100% guilty if this Jim. I am no saint on this at all. But I think we all just need to admit that that is Christianity and many of us are failing.

You use 1 Corintians 5 as your right to judge ? This is talking about brothers orthose whoare in our church who claim to walk with God but are living this kind of life style. Howdoes this say go forth and judge ?

Newlywed couples tend to struggle in the begining and God is directing them and teaching them and if they truly make God first in their lives they will not stay that way long.

If you fix your car or up grade things then you can not face them? This does not even make sense. You feel guilty over upgrading your car because someone is struggling in their new start. With this thinking I would imangine that one might feel guilty for taking a drink of water when there are those who have not good water or feel guilty for eating a sterak when so and so had toeat a left over hot dog.

You speak as if those who have these things arte guilty of not giving to orphans and so forth. How do you knowwhat they really gave? I mean to speak this over them I would want to know for sure that what I was speaking was 100 percent truth and not simply something I think.

 

[Arrie03]

You make a couple of decent points. One when a christians lives with a poverty mentality it says.........all i need is the cheeper model for modesty pleases God which is stinken thinken.
If a man can afford to buy a 3000 dollar lawn tyractor because that is what he wopuld enjoy then so be it. You used an example of not using it for Gods glory we fall short. Hmm ya know what say he uses it to cut his grass and hey what say he praises God while cutting such said grass and thanks God for his awesome tractor.

Look you miss the big picture........does a soldier pay his own way ? Does not a farmer keep of the harvest ro slaughter for him self ? When God bless us with finances it does not mean one is wrong for having thingsd for them selves. WHAT IS WRONG IS WHEN THAT IS ALL THAT IS EVER DONE.

Also a good point.
I think we are all disagreeing over something that has a very fine line, but at the end of the day what matters is that we judge not another's heart. We just do not know enough.