On Richness and Poverty

[Fish Catcher Jim]

1. The joy from feeding an orphan > ownership pride from a Ferrari.
2. Good Christian = Toyota / Ok Christian = BMW / Naughty Christian = Ferrari .
Good Christian = no $550 suits / Ok Christian = 2-3 $550 suits / naughty Christian = only $550 suits.

Kj I must ask where do you draw this conclusion from ? How do you arive at these facts?

 

[Klub]

1. The joy from feeding an orphan > ownership pride from a Ferrari.
2. Good Christian = Toyota / Ok Christian = BMW / Naughty Christian = Ferrari .
Good Christian = no $550 suits / Ok Christian = 2-3 $550 suits / naughty Christian = only $550 suits.

Kingj, I agree with you that we should live as good stewards and not buy ferraris everyday, but to label a Christian as Good, Okay and Naughty based on possessions is very legalistic and wrong. We are all "naughty" Christians in some way or another, whether it is apparent as a physical representation, or hidden away in our hearts, it is the same to God.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

1. The good Christian is always mindful of how they affect / influence / stumble others. They are not living for themselves.

2. I will never buy a rubbish car. We need reliability and an 'aircon'. We should also come across to others as someone who looks after our possessions. So clean and well maintained car. But we should not go anywhere near being boastful or having the appearance of being boastful.

The good Christian is always mindful of how they affect / influence / stumble others. They are not living for themselves.
What does this have to do with what kind of car or suit one has? A person can truly be living for God and have God so pleased with them that He just smiles everytime He hears their name and they drive a new Ferraris and Porsche and even have a brand new Humphies pulling a 250,000.00 dollar Boat.

Now with God being pleased how is this living for them selves ?

2. I will never buy a rubbish car. We need reliability and an 'aircon'. We should also come across to others as someone who looks after our possessions. So clean and well maintained car. But we should not go anywhere near being boastful or having the appearance of being boastful.

Being seen with Good new and or fancy stuff is not being boastful or looking boastful.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

If we see a pastor living an 'over the top' luxury life I think we do know enough.

Have you watched ''Machine gun preacher''? Watch that and you will see exactly where the heart of many pastors is.

So you getting your spiritual understanding from movies or video's here KJ ?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

If we see a pastor living an 'over the top' luxury life I think we do know enough.

Have you watched ''Machine gun preacher''? Watch that and you will see exactly where the heart of many pastors is.

Machine Gun Preacher is a 2011 action biopic film about Sam Childers, a former gang biker turned preacher and defender of African orphans. The movie was based on Childers' book Another Man's War.[3] It was written byJason Keller, directed by Marc Forster, and stars Gerard Butler, Michelle Monaghan and Michael Shannon.

The film tells the story of Childers and his efforts to save the children ofSouth Sudan in collaboration with the Sudan People's Liberation Army(SPLA) against the atrocities of the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA).

This is how you see the hearts of many pastors ? Why ?

 

[KingJ]

This is how you see the hearts of many pastors ? Why ?

No, I am not getting wise Christian counsel from a film. But I am recognizing a very real problem among Christians being addressed in the film. It is a true story of Sam Childers.

 

[KingJ]

The good Christian is always mindful of how they affect / influence / stumble others. They are not living for themselves.
What does this have to do with what kind of car or suit one has? A person can truly be living for God and have God so pleased with them that He just smiles everytime He hears their name and they drive a new Ferraris and Porsche and even have a brand new Humphies pulling a 250,000.00 dollar Boat.

Now with God being pleased how is this living for them selves ?

2. I will never buy a rubbish car. We need reliability and an 'aircon'. We should also come across to others as someone who looks after our possessions. So clean and well maintained car. But we should not go anywhere near being boastful or having the appearance of being boastful.

Being seen with Good new and or fancy stuff is not being boastful or looking boastful.

I think we have said all we have to say to each other on this. We just going in circles now.

 

[KingJ]

Kingj, I agree with you that we should live as good stewards and not buy ferraris everyday, but to label a Christian as Good, Okay and Naughty based on possessions is very legalistic and wrong. We are all "naughty" Christians in some way or another, whether it is apparent as a physical representation, or hidden away in our hearts, it is the same to God.

I used my labels purposely to avoid being legalistic. None of those states are sinful. They are expectations. We can all be forgiven for wanting and owning these things. We are in the world. But the question is, is it a good Christian testimony? Do the unsaved think of us as holy Christians / not attached to the world when they see us pulling a R250k boat with our over priced 4x4?

 

[Euphemia]

1. It is nonsense that the cost of a Ferrari does not equal a Toyota plus helping an orphan or two or three for life?

Your valuation is nonsense. If one is a strong believer and does as the word says, and still has a Ferrari, who are you to say He hasn't given twice that to others who need?

2. The strong believer will not give two hoots about a carnal treasure. If they knew it causes pride in others they will sell it.

Strong believers can certainly enjoy something that is luxurious without entertaining pride. God knows the hearts of those he blesses. He gives to people He trusts with a right heart attitude. don't you worry your head about it. Concern yourself with your own heart attitude.

3. Not everyone should be pastors, for a reason.

The only people who should be pastors (professionally) are those He has equipped and trained with that particular ability. Other than that, every single believer is a pastor of sorts---someone who cares for others with the love of Jesus Christ.

It is clear that you and I disagree 100% on this. I don't think another 1000 pages will change that.

Correct. I leave the judging to God.

 

[Euphemia]

So you getting your spiritual understanding from movies or video's here KJ ?

Probably YouTube.

 

[aha]

Original statement:
The person that thinks buying a Ferrari > Toyota plus helping an orphan for life.
Revised/general statement:
One who spend excessively when a brother is in need.
Question:
a. Is buying something is excessive spending when one can easily afford it?
b. Or, is excessive spending in itself is not a Christian thing to do?

a. No.
b. Yes. Excessive spending on self can only be translated as vanity. How is it not? Vanity and Christianity are supposed to be night and day.

That answer have a rational basis. I can agree with that…

But here is another paradigm that I can agree as well…
a: Yes it is, it remains excessive spending regardless if one can easily afford it.
b: No, it is not in itself. It is a matter of Christian Liberty.

What my point: there can be 2 valid, rational answer to a question, that is: 2 valid measurement stick to judge.

Which one to use…. am not sure… I think we can only see on a horizontal manner ....

 

[Major]

Jim, I do not think he is wrong.
Point is people do not get it. That's why some use the scripture incorrectly.
I agree, if we really follow Jesus, our desires changes away from ourselves and focuses on the kingdom of God.

Now that is the point I think! Well said!

 

[KingJ]

1. Your valuation is nonsense.

2. Strong believers can certainly enjoy something that is luxurious without entertaining pride. God knows the hearts of those he blesses. He gives to people He trusts with a right heart attitude. don't you worry your head about it. Concern yourself with your own heart attitude.

3. The only people who should be pastors (professionally) are those He has equipped and trained with that particular ability. Other than that, every single believer is a pastor of sorts---someone who cares for others with the love of Jesus Christ.

4. Correct. I leave the judging to God.

1. My math is sound. Can we focus on that?

2. What we spend our money on is a literal reflection of our heart attitude.

3. Yes, we are all accountable for living 'upstanding / God fearing / avoiding all appearance of evil' lives down here.

4. I believe we are perfectly capable of judging this matter ourselves.

 

[Ravindran]

I was trying to refrain getting into the discussion as I don't see thing building up the fellowship much

What do you guys think about Abraham? Probably he was the richest person in the whole region.. And how about Job? They are OT heros right.. They were blessed with so much blessing. Lord blessed them beyond what they would have asked for. In OT we also see prophets who did not live a luxurious life.

I don't see things change upside down between OT and NT. A christian driving Ferrari is not evil. A person driving Ferrari and not giving one third of his riches to poor is also not evil. A christian getting a Ferrari through immoral ways is evil.

I think love for materialistic things is something we all fall into. How many people have attraction to hi-tec electronic gadgets? (like me). How many people love to maintain nice looking garden? How many people love upgrading cars and customizing? All these are materialistic desires. A desire to have Ferrari and iPhone 6s is not much different. It is just a different scale (probably day and light difference). But the root desire in heart is the same. What matters is, are we willing to forsake those desires if that is what Lord wants us to.

 

[KingJ]

I was trying to refrain getting into the discussion as I don't see thing building up the fellowship much

What do you guys think about Abraham? Probably he was the richest person in the whole region.. And how about Job? They are OT heros right.. They were blessed with so much blessing. Lord blessed them beyond what they would have asked for. In OT we also see prophets who did not live a luxurious life.

I don't see things change upside down between OT and NT. A christian driving Ferrari is not evil. A person driving Ferrari and not giving one third of his riches to poor is also not evil. A christian getting a Ferrari through immoral ways is evil.

I think love for materialistic things is something we all fall into. How many people have attraction to hi-tec electronic gadgets? (like me). How many people love to maintain nice looking garden? How many people love upgrading cars and customizing? All these are materialistic desires. A desire to have Ferrari and iPhone 6s is not much different. It is just a different scale (probably day and light difference). But the root desire in heart is the same. What matters is, are we willing to forsake those desires if that is what Lord wants us to.

1. Wanting to own latest tech is fine. Wanting to own most expensive tech of a kind = possible pride.

2. There is a couple $100k difference between an iphone 6 and a ferarri. They both push pride. Though the latter pushes it to such a level that it is criminal for a Christian.

3. I am not against being rich. But think for a second if you think God would have trusted Abraham and Job with riches if they couldn't be trusted with them?

4. There is one hell of a difference between OT and NT regarding riches. OT = if you tithe / give you can test God / almost demand riches. NT = do not desire carnal treasures but treasure in heaven. Give expecting nothing in return. That is why prosperity teachers like to teach that we are super Jews .

5. A Christian is more accountable for living as a Godly example to the unsaved compared to OT Jews.

Godly example:
1. = heart for feeding orphans before unneccesarily more expensive carnal treasures.
2. = Always aware of not stumbling and causing envy in others.
3. = Humility / Modesty!!!!!

Yes of course we are all guilty of this. Time for self judgment!!! We are failing at Christianity!

 

[JohnP]

Yes of course we are all guilty of this. Time for self judgment!!! We are failing at Christianity!

I sense a lot of judgement in your posts aimed at others, not self. "You drive a fancy car? Well, you can't be a good Christian!" You may not intend it to come across that way, but that is how I am perceiving it. It is about what is in your heart, and how you live your life, not what you own.

No matter what you own, it can cause envy in someone. You say that you will never buy a "rubbish" car. "So a clean and well maintained car." What about the person sitting at the bus stop, waiting an hour in the rain for the bus as you drive past in your "clean and well maintained" car? Could they not envy you for having that when they have none?

 

[KingJ]

Original statement:
The person that thinks buying a Ferrari > Toyota plus helping an orphan for life.
Revised/general statement:
One who spend excessively when a brother is in need.
Question:
a. Is buying something is excessive spending when one can easily afford it?
b. Or, is excessive spending in itself is not a Christian thing to do?

That answer have a rational basis. I can agree with that…

But here is another paradigm that I can agree as well…
a: Yes it is, it remains excessive spending regardless if one can easily afford it.
b: No, it is not in itself. It is a matter of Christian Liberty.

What my point: there can be 2 valid, rational answer to a question, that is: 2 valid measurement stick to judge.

Which one to use…. am not sure… I think we can only see on a horizontal manner ....

Your initial revised statement is actually not inline. It only addresses excessive spending and not actual value. A person who buys a fancy suit cannot feed an orphan for life. Helping an orphan with one or two nice meals may be cruel. ''With great riches comes great responsibility''.

Then there is a difference between excessive spending and excessive spending on self.

 

[Major]

1. My math is sound. Can we focus on that?

2. What we spend our money on is a literal reflection of our heart attitude.

3. Yes, we are all accountable for living 'upstanding / God fearing / avoiding all appearance of evil' lives down here.

4. I believe we are perfectly capable of judging this matter ourselves.

Sounds correct to me.
I have spoken out several times on this subject and while the Scripture doesn’t condemn a large income in itself, it does emphatically condemn selfish spending, selfish accumulation, and hoarding up earthly luxuries and treasures for ourselves; as Jesus said in Matt. 6:19-21......
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also”.

Jesus commanded us not to store up “treasures” on earth, because if we do, it proves that our hearts are not with Him in Heaven. Storing up earthly “treasures” proves that our affection is on things of the earth and not with the things of God in Heaven. It proves that we are so worldly-minded that we’re of no Heavenly good.

The Scripture commands us in Co. 3:2 to set our affections on the things above, not on things of the earth. If we are laying up financial abundance for ourselves on earth for the purpose of enjoying ourselves in this world then we are in disobedience.

Even if we say, “Well, I know that I have much material abundance laid up on earth, but my heart is really with Jesus in Heaven”, it doesn’t matter because Jesus said that our heart will always be wherever our treasure is. If you have such treasure on earth, it proves that your heart and affection is on earth and not in Heaven, and that you love the things of this world more than you love God. If you didn’t, you would love Jesus enough to obey Him which is exactly what Jesus said in John 14:15.

 

[Major]

I sense a lot of judgement in your posts aimed at others, not self. "You drive a fancy car? Well, you can't be a good Christian!" You may not intend it to come across that way, but that is how I am perceiving it. It is about what is in your heart, and how you live your life, not what you own.

No matter what you own, it can cause envy in someone. You say that you will never buy a "rubbish" car. "So a clean and well maintained car." What about the person sitting at the bus stop, waiting an hour in the rain for the bus as you drive past in your "clean and well maintained" car? Could they not envy you for having that when they have none?

But what about the fact that the person with the New car may have worked longer and harder than did the person at the bus stop.

Couldn't that person get more education, find a job, find a higher paying job, save money???

I agrre that some people will always want what you have but most of the time when we see that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, it means that the other side is paying a higher water bill to make that grass green and we are not.

 

[KingJ]

1. I sense a lot of judgement in your posts aimed at others, not self. "You drive a fancy car? Well, you can't be a good Christian!" 2. You may not intend it to come across that way, but that is how I am perceiving it. It is about what is in your heart, and how you live your life, not what you own.

3. No matter what you own, it can cause envy in someone. You say that you will never buy a "rubbish" car. "So a clean and well maintained car." What about the person sitting at the bus stop, waiting an hour in the rain for the bus as you drive past in your "clean and well maintained" car? Could they not envy you for having that when they have none?

1. God forbid I can't judge fellow Christians 1 Cor 5:12.

2. It is exactly how I intended it.

3. Every onlooker knows that there is a world of difference between driving something to get you from A to B compared to driving something that you know will turn everyone's heads from A to B.

Then, there is a world of good you can do with the savings of the difference between a Ferrari and a Toyota.