On Richness and Poverty

JohnP said:
I sense a lot of judgement in your posts aimed at others, not self. "You drive a fancy car? Well, you can't be a good Christian!" You may not intend it to come across that way, but that is how I am perceiving it. It is about what is in your heart, and how you live your life, not what you own.

No matter what you own, it can cause envy in someone. You say that you will never buy a "rubbish" car. "So a clean and well maintained car." What about the person sitting at the bus stop, waiting an hour in the rain for the bus as you drive past in your "clean and well maintained" car? Could they not envy you for having that when they have none?
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I do not see judgment is Kings posts but I do see a whole lot of truth and straight talk.

Dosent the Scriptures tell us in 1 Peter 4:17..........
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
 
KingJ said:
1. My math is sound. Can we focus on that?

2. What we spend our money on is a literal reflection of our heart attitude.

3. Yes, we are all accountable for living 'upstanding / God fearing / avoiding all appearance of evil' lives down here.

4. I believe we are perfectly capable of judging this matter ourselves.
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We are not to be judging the hearts of others based upon their exercise of their Christian liberty with regard to finances. You do not know whether someone has been given a great gift, or has saved pennies for years to purchase something that they have had a penchant for for years...and that is not sin. God is pleased to bless us with things we enjoy.

It takes discipline to train one's mind to refrain from judging people based external, material things. Try it. You will benefit from it.

We need to be accountable for ourselves in this regard, and not be critical of others, which actually can reveal a heart of envy in us if we do.
 
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Ravindran said:
I was trying to refrain getting into the discussion as I don't see thing building up the fellowship much :cautious:

What do you guys think about Abraham? Probably he was the richest person in the whole region.. And how about Job? They are OT heros right.. They were blessed with so much blessing. Lord blessed them beyond what they would have asked for. In OT we also see prophets who did not live a luxurious life.

I don't see things change upside down between OT and NT. A christian driving Ferrari is not evil. A person driving Ferrari and not giving one third of his riches to poor is also not evil. A christian getting a Ferrari through immoral ways is evil.

I think love for materialistic things is something we all fall into. How many people have attraction to hi-tec electronic gadgets? (like me). How many people love to maintain nice looking garden? How many people love upgrading cars and customizing? All these are materialistic desires. A desire to have Ferrari and iPhone 6s is not much different. It is just a different scale (probably day and light difference). But the root desire in heart is the same. What matters is, are we willing to forsake those desires if that is what Lord wants us to.
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Amen, Rav!

I was reading this just this morning and this is concerning God's will for His people (we are His people!):

Deuteronomy 15:4-6
“There should be no poor among you, for the Lord your God will greatly bless you in the land he is giving you as a special possession. 5 You will receive this blessing if you are careful to obey all the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today. 6 The Lord your God will bless you as he has promised. You will lend money to many nations but will never need to borrow. You will rule many nations, but they will not rule over you.
 
Major said:
But what about the fact that the person with the New car may have worked longer and harder than did the person at the bus stop.

Couldn't that person get more education, find a job, find a higher paying job, save money???

I agrre that some people will always want what you have but most of the time when we see that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, it means that the other side is paying a higher water bill to make that grass green and we are not.
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It sounds like you are agreeing with my point. Not quite sure.
 
KingJ said:
1. God forbid I can't judge fellow Christians 1 Cor 5:12.

2. It is exactly how I intended it.

3. Every onlooker knows that there is a world of difference between driving something to get you from A to B compared to driving something that you know will turn everyone's heads from A to B.

Then, there is a world of good you can do with the savings of the difference between a Ferrari and a Toyota.
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Ok, at least I know where you stand. Thanks for clarifying that you are actually judging us based on whether or not we have too nice of a car, or too nice of a smart phone. You have a great, blessed day.

I do want to say with Christian love, and you can ignore it or take it any way that you want, but your message would be received much more openly if not for your tone - "God forbid I can't judge fellow Christians" and the like comes across as entirely condescending.
 
KingJ said:
What if we do know that that is not the case?
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If you are privy to such information and you have a personal relationship with the person, under God, you have the authority to approach the subject with the person. However, to make generalized statements about all Christians who may possess a luxurious object is unwise.
 
KingJ said:
1. Wanting to own latest tech is fine. Wanting to own most expensive tech of a kind = possible pride.
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How about buying an inexpensive phone and save the money to make some donations to people who don't even have food?
2. There is a couple $100k difference between an iphone 6 and a ferarri. They both push pride. Though the latter pushes it to such a level that it is criminal for a Christian.
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This memorial day I have been eating so much food and wasting so much food. How about eating less and donating the money? I know we are talking about 2 extremes. The point is, we all have that nature in us. If a person is driving ferrari obtained through moral ways, we cannot judge the person. That is the point everyone is making.
3. I am not against being rich. But think for a second if you think God would have trusted Abraham and Job with riches if they couldn't be trusted with them?
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How do we know whom God trusts and does not trust?
4. There is one hell of a difference between OT and NT regarding riches. OT = if you tithe / give you can test God / almost demand riches. NT = do not desire carnal treasures but treasure in heaven. Give expecting nothing in return. That is why prosperity teachers like to teach that we are super Jews :giggle:.
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I don't agree to that completely. While NT expands everything even more clearly, God's expectation never changed. We can trace that back to Genesis. Both Cain and Abel gave tithes (though the name was not there, they were tithing). Why Cain's alone was not accepted? He did not have any right to demand anything from God. Why would that be? God's expectation with riches never changed. Man's understanding of giving improved as Scripture got completed.
 
Major said:
I do not see judgment is Kings posts but I do see a whole lot of truth and straight talk.
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I made it quite clear that that is how I was perceiving it. I have no qualms with how you and KingJ want to live your lives or what you care to believe. If God has led you to live a life of poverty, then you are following His will and that is a good thing. My problem is only when you start trying to tell others that what God has blessed them with is a bad thing. You don't have to reply to this, as I am leaving this thread now, but as food for thought - what do you define as living excessively? KingJ seems to be using the example of a Ferrari or Toyota, but how would a person in a third world country that has to walk 5 miles to get a bucket of dirty water for drinking, view that Toyota, or the modest house you live in? They would view it as being wealthy.

Again, it is about where your heart is. If you focus your life on obtaining riches, then yes, you are serving mammon. If you are serving God, and throughout your life you have manged to work hard and save up and are able to afford nice things and not lose your focus on God and serving the community, then I see no problem with that.
 
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Euphemia said:
Amen, Rav!

I was reading this just this morning and this is concerning God's will for His people (we are His people!):

Deuteronomy 15:4-6
“There should be no poor among you, for the Lord your God will greatly bless you in the land he is giving you as a special possession. 5 You will receive this blessing if you are careful to obey all the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today. 6 The Lord your God will bless you as he has promised. You will lend money to many nations but will never need to borrow. You will rule many nations, but they will not rule over you.
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We are not 'His people'. We are His adopted children. We are Christians, not Jews.

A Jew can be likened to an employee in His house. They get paid if they clean the room. A child get's a pat on the back.

In the first month my helper works in my house I have to promise that they will get paid. Otherwise they will not work. Would the Jews have walked to Israel if there was no promised land of milk and honey?
 
KingJ said:
We are not 'His people'. We are His adopted children. We are Christians, not Jews.

A Jew can be likened to an employee in His house. They get paid if they clean the room. A child get's a pat on the back.

In the first month my helper works in my house I have to promise that they will get paid. Otherwise they will not work. Would the Jews have walked to Israel if there was no promised land of milk and honey?
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Romans 4:16
So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
 
JohnP said:
KingJ seems to be using the example of a Ferrari or Toyota, but how would a person in a third world country that has to walk 5 miles to get a bucket of dirty water for drinking view that Toyota, or the modest house you live in? They would view it as being wealthy.
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There is an African country that does not know the difference between a Toyota and Ferrari? If there is, then yes, you right. We would need to be mindful of that. All you are doing is moving the goal posts...
 
Euphemia said:
Romans 4:16
So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
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Abraham is your 'father'? It is a metaphor. Abraham was the first with real faith in an unseen God.
 
JohnP said:
It sounds like you are agreeing with my point. Not quite sure.
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The problem IMO comes from those who always ask their people for more and more giving so as to support the ministry and then they use that money to buy a 3 million dollar house or that Chevy Corvette. They are using the money to support a life style instead of supporting the ministry of the church.

Do we really think that the pastor of any church or preacher should own a house worth millions when there are starving people everywhere that need to be fed?

I am only speaking of ME. I could never ever live like that. My conscious would never allow it. IF I had the ability to buy a house worth 3 million, I would not do so. I would buy exactly what I have right now and then ride around buying food and dental work for those who were unable to do so.

In 2004 we had had a tornado come through our city. It destroyed several homes. Our church had money and in fact we had $10,000 over our budget. Our pastor and several deacons took that cash and went door (no doors just trash) to door giving those people money with no questions asked. There was never a thought of giving the pastor more than he was already getting and he would not have taken it if it was offered.

THAT is the difference IMO!
 
KingJ said:
There is an African country that does not know the difference between a Toyota and Ferrari? If there is, then yes, you right. We would need to be mindful of that. All you are doing is moving the goal posts...
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You excel greatly at twisting words, and as this is no longer edifying for me, I will be leaving this thread as I mentioned. I just want to clarify that my point is that to their perspective a Toyota is wealth. I made no claim that they didn't know the difference. Again, God bless you and have a great day!
 
KingJ said:
There is an African country that does not know the difference between a Toyota and Ferrari? If there is, then yes, you right. We would need to be mindful of that. All you are doing is moving the goal posts...
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Amen! I have a friend in Uganda Africa and if anyone needs to think about the "difference" PM me and I will give you his name and church address. His church is working to feed and house orphans of AIDS parents who have died and they have no one to support them.

Instead of buying a Ferrari, why not send them the money and then buy the Toyota or even Hyundai.
 
Major said:
The problem IMO comes from those who always ask their people for more and more giving so as to support the ministry and then they use that money to buy a 3 million dollar house or that Chevy Corvette. They are using the money to support a life style instead of supporting the ministry of the church.

Do we really think that the pastor of any church or preacher should own a house worth millions when there are starving people everywhere that need to be fed?

I am only speaking of ME. I could never ever live like that. My conscious would never allow it. IF I had the ability to buy a house worth 3 million, I would not do so. I would buy exactly what I have right now and then ride around buying food and dental work for those who were unable to do so.

In 2004 we had had a tornado come through our city. It destroyed several homes. Our church had money and in fact we had $10,000 over our budget. Our pastor and several deacons took that cash and went door (no doors just trash) to door giving those people money with no questions asked. There was never a thought of giving the pastor more than he was already getting and he would not have taken it if it was offered.

THAT is the difference IMO!
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I agree with you, Major. The part I bolded is especially accurate. God bless.
 
JohnP said:
I made it quite clear that that is how I was perceiving it. I have no qualms with how you and KingJ want to live your lives or what you care to believe. If God has led you to live a life of poverty, then you are following His will and that is a good thing. My problem is only when you start trying to tell others that what God has blessed them with is a bad thing. You don't have to reply to this, as I am leaving this thread now, but as food for thought - what do you define as living excessively? KingJ seems to be using the example of a Ferrari or Toyota, but how would a person in a third world country that has to walk 5 miles to get a bucket of dirty water for drinking, view that Toyota, or the modest house you live in? They would view it as being wealthy.

Again, it is about where your heart is. If you focus your life on obtaining riches, then yes, you are serving mammon. If you are serving God, and throughout your life you have manged to work hard and save up and are able to afford nice things and not lose your focus on God and serving the community, then I see no problem with that.
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Agreed.
 
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