Poll on hell

[calvin]

MoG,
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
How do you understand this passage in the context of God causing Cain to burn longer than Hitler (your reply #155, point 4)
The same argument must apply to the saints as well; the Lord is not resurrecting Paul ahead of say..Polycarp or any of the other saints of past centuries.

 

[Major]

Wherever God dwells, that is heaven. Since God is eternal, by extension his dwelling place is eternal.

With that said, I do choose Annihilation because it is biblical. You say I forced scripture to say something yet I have not offered my own interpretation on any text quoted but just simply quoted it and its corresponding verses. I did not use any exegetical gymnastics based on private interpretation/tradition to arrive at my conclusion but let the bible speak for itself. If there was a "problem verse" I showed from scripture where the same words can mean something different. If I have forced scripture to say something, that is I did not let scripture define scripture but just used my own explanation, then I challenge you to show me where I did just that? I can say with humility that I am secure in all my doctrine because all text agree. I fear no man as to what he may think but only fear God and that leads me to a purer understanding of his word. Scripture says cursed be the man that maketh flesh his arm.

I would also like to add that eternal torment contains mysteries like:

1.) Why is the immortal soul resurrected?
2.) why is there a second death
3.) How can God be love and yet keep the wicked alive to eternally torture them. Is God more sadistic then Hitler?
4.) Is God fair if he is allows Cain to burn longer then Hitler or Uzza (2 sam 6:6) to burn longer then Stalin?
5.) The scripture says only God is immortal yet how is the "soul" immortal also.


But I tell you the truth, there is no mystery with annihilation. No gymnastics needs to be performed when explaining the doctrine of the resurrection. We know the second death is judgement and does not begin at a persons literal death but at the time appointed in scripture. We can see that God is a God of love and mercy (the weightier matter of the law), for he blots the wicked out of existence--out of their own misery. We see that God is fair, because everyone will receive there rewards according to their works, not according to when they died in the annals of time.

Furthermore, annihilation is a wonderful antidote to heresies such as 1.) spiritualism and 2.) talking to the dead

Annihilation is logical bibically, is healthier spiritually, and demonstrates Gods mercy to the wicked. There is really no benefit to eternal torment theologically or practically. This goes back to the garden of Eden where the serpent told our parents the very first lie that "thou shall not die" in opposition to Gods command.

By the hardness of their hearts, the Jews rejected truth for the sake of their traditions. Let us not do the same but like Jesus say, "come let us reason together."

Blessings,
MoG

NO SIR! I have to disagree completely with you. Annihilation is NOT Biblical in any way whatsoever.

While YOU as an annihilationist claim that YOU find YOUR position to be Biblical, the common rationale in YOUR thinking is rooted in the thought that divine justice and love make eternal suffering in Hell a morally repugnant idea to YOU.

The great majority of annihilationists claim that the idea is an unfair punishment for finite sins of people. The thinking comes out as .............
"how can this accurately reflect God’s ultimate victory over suffering and evil, they argue, when it permanently installs a place of suffering in the final, eternal order?"

Likewise, how can the saved live in blissful joy knowing that some of their loved ones burn forever in hell? With this in mind, those who call themselves annihilationists claim that the idea of "eternal suffering in Hell" is a misconception and perversion of the truth about God's justice and love.

Consider, Matthew 25:46: .......
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

By no stretch of the imagination can the punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear on this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness.

Bible scholar John Gerstner tells us that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it."

So then, how do we know that the punishment referred to in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. The Scriptures, by contrast, teach that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matthew 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12).

The very fact that people will suffer varying degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts.

 

[Major]

Ok, lets talk about eternal fire and in the context of judgement per the plain word of the bible:

Jude :

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? This verse makes it clear that Sodom are set fourth as an EXAMPLE of what is to come.

I am sorry, the bible is clear. You have to allow for elasticity in the langauge.

You are applying human logic to a Bible principle.

 

[Major]

Bro Major,

Not trying to back you in a corner or bang you over the head with scripture--just so you know! We have to put away our pride when studying scripture. and be willing to put our beliefs to the test against the word of God. Truth can afford to be fair. If it is clearly shown to me that I am wrong, I promise you I will admit to it.. the word of God must be true, only our interpretation be wrong. We have to become like a child.

Tradition is a powerful tranquilizer to the word of God, hence why Satan is so good at it using it. Anyway, only by prayer to the Lord and complete dependence and obedience to his will we come to a fuller understanding of his word.


God Bless you,
MoG

So....because I do not agree with your non-Biblical, I am prideful???

What a terrible way to try and have a debate.

 

[calvin]

On a lighter note, from the video I see that Eve had plucked eyebrows

 

[Major]

On a lighter note, from the video I see that Eve had plucked eyebrows

Maybe she got to close to the flame of sin and they got chinged????

 

[Man-ofGod]

I believe that the spiritual soul hosted the physical with Adam and after the fall, the physical hosted the spirit. It is the spirit that is in God's image...not the flesh. The soul does separate from the flesh at death. It is the soul that is immortal because it is of God's breath. He made it that way from the beginning and He never (scriptually) takes away His gifts. Not to Satan and his fallen angels and not to us (humans). To annihilate would mean God made a mistake.

Silk, your an awesome person and I respect your opinion. But we are bible believing Christians. If what you say is true, then I need a verse in support of your theology. I am careful not to say more then what the bible says.

Gen 2:7 says dust in form of man + breath of life = soul.

We have to check ourselves with the word of God. If there are verses that support this idea and have no contradiction of Gods explicit word, please let me know. God Bless.

Please remember that I do not see anywhere in scripture where God's breath = soul, only God's breath + dust in the form of man = soul.


God Bless,
MoG

 

[Man-ofGod]

On a lighter note, from the video I see that Eve had plucked eyebrows

lol

 

[Major]

Silk, your an awesome person and I respect your opinion. But we are bible believing Christians. If what you say is true, then I need a verse in support of your theology. I am careful not to say more then what the bible says.

Gen 2:7 says dust in form of man + breath of life = soul.

We have to check ourselves with the word of God. If there are verses that support this idea and have no contradiction of Gods explicit word, please let me know. God Bless.

Please remember that I do not see anywhere in scripture where God's breath = soul, only God's breath + dust in the form of man = soul.


God Bless,
MoG

Silk can speak for her self but Could it be that you have made this comment because you believe in annihilation of the body and soul?

Her comment which you posted was........
"The soul does separate from the flesh at death".

Now it may just be my perception and if so I apologize but you seem to be indicating that Silk is some how less of a Christian than YOU ARE because she does not believe as you do.!

Your comment was.......
"But we are bible believing Christians. If what you say is true, then I need a verse in support of your theology."

On another thread I think, maybe this one, you suggested that I was too prideful to accept your opinions.

Personally I think that it would be a real blessing if you were a little more "Christian" in your comments. We all are not going to agree and the fact
is you questioned someone's Christianity and want Bible verses but you believe in annihilation and cannot post any Scriptures to support that theology.

NOW please explain how IF the soul and spirit do NOT separate, what is it that went to the "torments" side of Sheol in Luke 16???
Then what is it that Jesus takes with Him captive when He ascended to heaven in Ephesians 4???
How is it that comes back from heaven at the Second Coming???

 

[Man-ofGod]

Silk can speak for her self but Could it be that you have made this comment because you believe in annihilation of the body and soul?

Her comment which you posted was........
"The soul does separate from the flesh at death".

Now it may just be my perception and if so I apologize but you seem to be indicating that Silk is some how less of a Christian than YOU ARE because she does not believe as you do.!

Your comment was.......
"But we are bible believing Christians. If what you say is true, then I need a verse in support of your theology."

On another thread I think, maybe this one, you suggested that I was too prideful to accept your opinions.

Personally I think that it would be a real blessing if you were a little more "Christian" in your comments. We all are not going to agree and the fact
is you questioned someone's Christianity and want Bible verses but you believe in annihilation and cannot post any Scriptures to support that theology.

NOW please explain how IF the soul and spirit do NOT separate, what is it that went to the "torments" side of Sheol in Luke 16???
Then what is it that Jesus takes with Him captive when He ascended to heaven in Ephesians 4???
How is it that comes back from heaven at the Second Coming???

Bro. Major,

I am a little disappointed and maybe surprised that you took this personal view and called into question my character. My comment are not about comparing my Christianity with her Christianity. The conversation you, others, and myself are having is related to what the word of God sais about this topic. As a result, my friendly reminder to Sister Silk was to show me from scripture her position concerning the soul. We sometimes, myself included, may believe something but really do not have a biblical background for it. But never did I say "since I am a bible believing Christian, please quote some verses." I acknowledge that we are both bible believing Christians and appealed to the meekness she exhibited in a previous post. I suspect that Sister Silk did not receive the comment as you suggested initially. Maybe your suggestion will alter that fact but I have faith it will not.

You say
"On another thread I think, maybe this one, you suggested that I was too prideful to accept your opinions. "

Again, this is not about being too prideful to accept my opinions. What I said was related to studying scripture. Don't you know that we are all spiritually blind when we study scripture? This is why we need to pray for clear understanding and put away preconceived ideas when we study.
King David says this "Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law." Psalms 119:18 This shows us that even King David had his eyes closed and had to pray that his spiritual eyes were opened. This is called meekness and we all need it. Do not take it personal.

I apologize if you took it that way, definitely not my intention.


Now for your questions.

NOW please explain how IF the soul and spirit do NOT separate, what is it that went to the "torments" side of Sheol in Luke 16???

This of course is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man and Jesus is sharing this parable with the Jewish leaders (Luke 16:14). The rich man in the parable are clothed in the garments that the priest wore (Luke 16:19)" and although "rich", he is spiritually poor and blind (compare with Rev 3:17).

The poor beggar named Lazarus dies and is in carried into Abrahams "bosom" and the rich man also dies and is in Hell experiencing torment. Here in lies the first problem. If you believe that this parable is literal, then you also believe the Lazarus resides in Abraham's bosom.
In Luke 16:25 the rich man proceeds to speak to Abraham from "Hell" to heaven. Then he ask Abraham to send Lazarus to where he is to cool his tongue w/ the tip of his finger? Do you really believe this would alleviate his torment? Of course not, I know you don't. That would be ridiculous.

Then by what authority can we say this is a literal hell? I dare say not from scripture.

We know from scripture that there was a real Lazarus who died and was resurrected. Despite this clear miracle, the Pharisees heart was hardened and they still sought to kill him (John 12:10). This is the real lesson of the parable--that the pharisees were to hard hearted to listen to truth.


So why did Jesus use this illustration? Because first century Jews were infiltrated by Hellenistic teachings (click to learn more) and practices. They were just as confused about the state of the dead as many are today. Even the apostles were confused (see John 11:11-13). Jesus simply used an illustration that they could relate to. But John 11 :11-13 will make it plane.

Then we see in John 11:43 Lazarus is ressurected. Now, "let us reason together." If Lazarus was in heaven, then Jesus did Lazarus a great disservice in pulling him from Heaven back to the earth. Yet if you believe that Lazarus was asleep in Christ, as scripture teaches, it makes perfect sense.

Then what is it that Jesus takes with Him captive when He ascended to heaven in Ephesians 4???

I do not see where Jesus takes anyone to heaven with Him in these verses?.

Are you referring to:
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Eph 4:8 ?

It seems to me this verse is saying that Jesus bound the power of sin( he led the captivity captive), and then gave gifts unto men by means of his Holy Spirit ( see Pentecost and Rom 7:23).

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

How is it that comes back from heaven at the Second Coming???

Not sure I understand the problem in this question?



God Bless my brother,

MoG

 

[Silk]

While I didn't take offense MoG, I think Major was reacting to the fact that I rarely "quote" because I detest out of context scripture and twisted sculpted same. I would say rather...just keep reading the bible over and over. God became physical in Christ and I would say that God can take physical form any time and space but His image is spirit. And our real image is spirit. Or do you think God has a long white beard, with toes and fingers. Do you really think Adam and Eve were just realizing they were without clothes after they ate? Or were they without their spiritual clothes? God gave substance to the clay by His breath. Is His breath exxplained as air? I don't think so. Do you? I have reason to know scripture. It says there that Satan is bound for another 1000 yrs. after Christ's second coming. There are several theories as to why but this info is not there. It could well be that this info isn't given because as we are now...we would not understand. With such as Hitler, Mengele and Stalin (Pol Pot) I cannot understand how these souls are not condemned. But I trust that some time in the future, I will understand until then I trust God and the nature which scripture outlines.

 

[Man-ofGod]

While I didn't take offense MoG, I think Major was reacting to the fact that I rarely "quote" because I detest out of context scripture and twisted sculpted same. I would say rather...just keep reading the bible over and over. God became physical in Christ and I would say that God can take physical form any time and space but His image is spirit. And our real image is spirit. Or do you think God has a long white beard, with toes and fingers. Do you really think Adam and Eve were just realizing they were without clothes after they ate? Or were they without their spiritual clothes? God gave substance to the clay by His breath. Is His breath exxplained as air? I don't think so. Do you? I have reason to know scripture. It says there that Satan is bound for another 1000 yrs. after Christ's second coming. There are several theories as to why but this info is not there. It could well be that this info isn't given because as we are now...we would not understand. With such as Hitler, Mengele and Stalin (Pol Pot) I cannot understand how these souls are not condemned. But I trust that some time in the future, I will understand until then I trust God and the nature which scripture outlines.

Adam and Eve were spiritually naked because they were separated from God. When Jesus came, the Father, Son and Spirit rejoin themselves to the faithful. The image of God is His character and is also shared similarities to Their form (Dan 3:25) , albeit there are obviously major ontological differences between Adam and God, With all that said, doesn't it contradict scripture to say man is immortal when scripture says that only God is immortal?

Consider animals, they have the breath in them. Are they immortal also?

Blessings,
MoG

 

[Silk]

I don't know what happens with animals in the afterlife but don't put words in my mouth...I did not say God breathed oxygen/air and thus man became man. To say "Adam and Eve were spiritually naked because they were separated from God" goes without saying from my POV but I wonder did you miss my point? And Adam and Eve separated themselves by disobedience. You cross from cpr for creation as opposed to what scripture says...God made man from the dust, in His own image which was the breath of God. Not that God was made of dust. Christ is a bridge for man to return to God. He accepts us into His body, unworthy, so that we might pass muster. He cleanses believers - we cannot corrupt Him. What has all of this to do with hell? We don't go physically to hell or heaven - we go as spirit. We have no idea what is felt by spirit but I suggest that it includes far more than mere flesh in both places. And God gave us all souls - He does not take back His gifts.

 

[Abdicate]

Let's keep it civil folks...

 

[Major]

Bro. Major,

I am a little disappointed and maybe surprised that you took this personal view and called into question my character. My comment are not about comparing my Christianity with her Christianity. The conversation you, others, and myself are having is related to what the word of God sais about this topic. As a result, my friendly reminder to Sister Silk was to show me from scripture her position concerning the soul. We sometimes, myself included, may believe something but really do not have a biblical background for it. But never did I say "since I am a bible believing Christian, please quote some verses." I acknowledge that we are both bible believing Christians and appealed to the meekness she exhibited in a previous post. I suspect that Sister Silk did not receive the comment as you suggested initially. Maybe your suggestion will alter that fact but I have faith it will not.

You say
"On another thread I think, maybe this one, you suggested that I was too prideful to accept your opinions. "

Again, this is not about being too prideful to accept my opinions. What I said was related to studying scripture. Don't you know that we are all spiritually blind when we study scripture? This is why we need to pray for clear understanding and put away preconceived ideas when we study.
King David says this "Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law." Psalms 119:18 This shows us that even King David had his eyes closed and had to pray that his spiritual eyes were opened. This is called meekness and we all need it. Do not take it personal.

I apologize if you took it that way, definitely not my intention.


Now for your questions.



This of course is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man and Jesus is sharing this parable with the Jewish leaders (Luke 16:14). The rich man in the parable are clothed in the garments that the priest wore (Luke 16:19)" and although "rich", he is spiritually poor and blind (compare with Rev 3:17).

The poor beggar named Lazarus dies and is in carried into Abrahams "bosom" and the rich man also dies and is in Hell experiencing torment. Here in lies the first problem. If you believe that this parable is literal, then you also believe the Lazarus resides in Abraham's bosom.
In Luke 16:25 the rich man proceeds to speak to Abraham from "Hell" to heaven. Then he ask Abraham to send Lazarus to where he is to cool his tongue w/ the tip of his finger? Do you really believe this would alleviate his torment? Of course not, I know you don't. That would be ridiculous.

Then by what authority can we say this is a literal hell? I dare say not from scripture.

We know from scripture that there was a real Lazarus who died and was resurrected. Despite this clear miracle, the Pharisees heart was hardened and they still sought to kill him (John 12:10). This is the real lesson of the parable--that the pharisees were to hard hearted to listen to truth.


So why did Jesus use this illustration? Because first century Jews were infiltrated by Hellenistic teachings (click to learn more) and practices. They were just as confused about the state of the dead as many are today. Even the apostles were confused (see John 11:11-13). Jesus simply used an illustration that they could relate to. But John 11 :11-13 will make it plane.

Then we see in John 11:43 Lazarus is ressurected. Now, "let us reason together." If Lazarus was in heaven, then Jesus did Lazarus a great disservice in pulling him from Heaven back to the earth. Yet if you believe that Lazarus was asleep in Christ, as scripture teaches, it makes perfect sense.




I do not see where Jesus takes anyone to heaven with Him in these verses?.

Are you referring to:
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Eph 4:8 ?

It seems to me this verse is saying that Jesus bound the power of sin( he led the captivity captive), and then gave gifts unto men by means of his Holy Spirit ( see Pentecost and Rom 7:23).

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23



Not sure I understand the problem in this question?



God Bless my brother,

MoG

MoG......There is just way to much information and comments in your post to respond to and keep contextual purity.

If you would like to respond by posting ONE thought at a time I would be more than happy to discuss them with you.

As I said when I posted comment #169 ....
"Now it may just be my perception and if so I apologize but you seem to be indicating that Silk is some how less of a Christian than YOU ARE because she does not believe as you do."

I read your comment to Silk several times before I said anything and what I read was what I said my perception was. I now see the Silk was not offended and that is OK with me, but that is her nature.(Sweet).

I accept your comment of not intending to offend anyone and your apology and I am of the same thinking. We may not have the same understanding of the Scriptures but there is no reason that we can not be friends.

 

[Man-ofGod]

I don't know what happens with animals in the afterlife but don't put words in my mouth...I did not say God breathed oxygen/air and thus man became man. To say "Adam and Eve were spiritually naked because they were separated from God" goes without saying from my POV but I wonder did you miss my point? And Adam and Eve separated themselves by disobedience. You cross from cpr for creation as opposed to what scripture says...God made man from the dust, in His own image which was the breath of God. Not that God was made of dust. Christ is a bridge for man to return to God. He accepts us into His body, unworthy, so that we might pass muster. He cleanses believers - we cannot corrupt Him. What has all of this to do with hell? We don't go physically to hell or heaven - we go as spirit. We have no idea what is felt by spirit but I suggest that it includes far more than mere flesh in both places. And God gave us all souls - He does not take back His gifts.

Easy does it,

What you say makes sense, it really does. But the thing is I do not see anywhere in scripture where the breadth of God is the image of God. You said it many times that you believe the breadth of God is the image of God, but I say where is it in scripture? God cannot charge me with spiritual blindness for asking this very basic question.

Blessings,
MoG

 

[Major]

Adam and Eve were spiritually naked because they were separated from God. When Jesus came, the Father, Son and Spirit rejoin themselves to the faithful. The image of God is His character and is also shared similarities to Their form (Dan 3:25) , albeit there are obviously major ontological differences between Adam and God, With all that said, doesn't it contradict scripture to say man is immortal when scripture says that only God is immortal?

Consider animals, they have the breath in them. Are they immortal also?

Blessings,
MoG

I really don't know about the immortalbility of animals, but we do know that animals will be in heaven from the Scriptures.

Just as animals were part of God’s untainted, original creation, so it seems they will be part of the world and life when He restores everything new—without the corruption of sin and death.

Isaiah 11:6........
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." (This sounds as if we will have pets in heaven, does it not?)

 

[Man-ofGod]

I really don't know about the immortalbility of animals, but we do know that animals will be in heaven from the Scriptures.

Just as animals were part of God’s untainted, original creation, so it seems they will be part of the world and life when He restores everything new—without the corruption of sin and death.

Isaiah 11:6........
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." (This sounds as if we will have pets in heaven, does it not?)

I agree. Looking forward to that day

 

[Silk]

I am not saying the breath of God is God's image - I am saying that it is the breath of God that transmitted the image. The flesh was already formed from physical matter but that physical matter did not live until God's breath.

 

[Silk]

Regarding animals in the afterlife, I expect to see all of my pets in heaven. I just didn't want to debate about air breathin animals as the same as air breathing humans and God's breath.