The second death is called the second death because it come after the first, which is natural death. Everyone dies once (except those that are translated) but the second death are for those that are lost (to be lost is to experience eternal separation from God). So the sequence of the death is not as important as the manner of the death. It is the manner of the second death that Jesus experienced, eternal separation from the Father. This He tasted so you and I do not have to.
Poll on hell
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The second death is called the second death because it come after the first, which is natural death. Everyone dies once (except those that are translated) but the second death are for those that are lost (to be lost is to experience eternal separation from God). So the sequence of the death is not as important as the manner of the death. It is the manner of the second death that Jesus experienced, eternal separation from the Father. This He tasted so you and I do not have to.
Wouldn't you agree though, that Jesus did not experience eternal separation? If He did not then He did not experience the second death.
I would not agree.. for Jesus is eternal. How can someone, whose very nature is eternal, whose divine nature is timeless, die? The human mind, yea, even angels, will never be able to fully grasp the sacrifice at the cross. Perhaps His sacrifice is an infinite wound to the Father and one that only the Father Himself can fully appreciate. This is as far as human reasoning is allowed to go.
Blessings to you,
MoG
This theology is ridiculous. Jesus could not have experienced the second death because He is the one who enacts it through the final judgment. His sacrifice served to save the faithful from death and harrow the faithful in hell. He was there exactly three days not eternity.
Hi Godspell,
How does His sacrifice save them from the judgement? Someone has to experience the full penalty in order to atone for it. This is the rule. If someone did not take on the full penalty, then we are yet in our sins for the judgement still has to be laid on us. This is Christianity 101. Now, are you implying that Jesus did not really take on the full penalty for sin and that a greater penalty yet still awaits the sinner?
If a theology is "ridiculous," then it must be shown from scripture because the foolishness of God is wiser than men. 1 cor 1:25
Blessings,
MoG
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It is a good thing that the truth is not democratic .
For it is neither upheld undermined or established by how many people 'vote' for it .
Winston Churchill once said "democracy is the worst form of government that there is ,but every other form has been tried"
I will add my pennyworth to that statement .
Democracy has a fatal flaw in it and a hidden snare to the unwary and it is this .
If you can get a majority by any means and can control the legislative process ,you can delude yourself into thinking the truth is what you say it is or makes it.
The truth is not a tyrant either and while the world is full of tyrants both political and religious who think the truth is what they make it .
God says "this is the way walk ye in it"
Or in an other place "I put before you life and death ;choose life"
in Christ
gerald
"No scripture is of mans own private interpretation"
Though many do so to their hurt.
In Christ
gerald
What people forget is that man is a tri-part being .
The body can be destroyed and is in the grave .UNLESS it has been redeemed By the Lord .
If the body is destroyed it is there you have the problem.
Lazerus was thirsty . But could not drink .
Every good and perfect gift cometh from the father above .
When you are thirsty he gives you drink. When hungry he gives you food .
"He who made the eye can he not see ? He who made the ear can he not hear? Is His hand sort that eh cannot save? But your sins have separated you from God"
If you die separated from God you are forever separated from God . For as a tree leans so it will fall and as it falls there it will stay .
That which does not die which is you . For the gifts of God are without repentance . Will eternally be separated from God and you will thirst but he cannot quench etc . That's hell at its most basic .
The other torments will be of that which you remember and lost chances to repent of desires for the good of others that cannot be met .The eyes to see what you have missed and of that eternity with God and all that that entails .
It may well be the look of the Lord as he passes judgement on you and said away with you ye worker of iniquity and he who could once have been your saviour is now your judge .
It may well be if your wicked enough and have hated God and resisted God all your life to grind your teeth in utter frustration and impotency for EVERY knee shall bow and every tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ........." But then it will be too late .
Hell was created for Lucifer /Satan and all the angels that believed him and followed him in his rebellion.
He was and is the father of all lies . If then you believe him you will in effect follow him and by so doing will finish up where he is going to.
If on the other hand you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will follow Him and will therefore " that you may be where I am"
If you love darkness more than the light .You will be cast into that place you now love the most but will come to hate "outer darkness"
If on the other hand you now love the light then will you not be welcomed into the Kingdom of God?
You might argue that some verses of scripture are hard to understand .
But try doing a thorough search on the subject and prayerfully ask God for the understanding of the matter .
For the whole Bible has much to say about it in all sorts of ways .
in Christ
gerald
Oh by the way this " eternal torture " idea that ahs crept into the church is a travesty of the truth and a lie . For eternal TORMENT is not the same as eternal torment .
If there be any torment .it is of the suffers own making and it is their just reward .
Torture is a wicked and deliberate acts on a persons body.
Hell was created for the devil . Not man . A spiritual place for a wicked spiritual being and all the angels that followed him.
Why do people always want to soften or soothsay Gods Word out of existence ?
If the scriptures talks about FIRE it is indeed A fire. and death is not figurative either ,Unless you wish to deny the graveyard and indeed the death of Jesus .
The sufferings of hell are not limited .Or if they are it is according to your works ,For some deserve greater condemnation than others . But all suffer . Hitler will suffer far more than a lowly unrepentant German soldier perhaps or for instance .
For his condemnation is far greater .
in Christ
gerald
Nintentacle
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Matthew 25:46 = Eternal torture.
Repeating an error still does not make it the truth .
There is a difference between torture and torment and you should know it .
in Christ
gerald
Torture comes from outside influences.
Torment comes from within.
Hypothetical:
Driving my car while under the influence of drugs, I ran over a child and killed that child.
I am not being tortured by that event, but the memory of the enormity of what I did torments me continually.
In like manner, when a person dies, the memories of all the henceforth unforgivable sins a person has committed will torment them for eternity.
Torment comes from within.
Hypothetical:
Driving my car while under the influence of drugs, I ran over a child and killed that child.
I am not being tortured by that event, but the memory of the enormity of what I did torments me continually.
In like manner, when a person dies, the memories of all the henceforth unforgivable sins a person has committed will torment them for eternity.
Jesus says eternal punishment in that verse. Punishment = separation & torment.
Torture is when one does it to another. Those in hell have made a choice. It's no difference when Adam fell, God didn't cause the curse, Adam did. You drink until your liver explodes, is that God's fault? No. Eat until diabetes takes your legs, is that God's fault? No. Reject Jesus and suffer for ever, is that God's fault? No. It's no more complicated than that.
In a finite place, filled with ugly, God rejecting, sinners - I can see evil souls torturing each other, however they may be able. I get what has been posted already about the difference between torture and torment. But both can said to be result of separation from God. I know it should be of little account, but negative near death experiences have some who only say torment but others mention torture. Search it on youtube.
That is an interesting thought. While many many non believers exhibit charitable behaviour, how much that is influenced by the the Lord's presence, we can only guess. Take that restraining presence away and the innate wickedness of men could really run amok
The serpent when speaking to Eve point blank denied the truth by adding N O T to the truth "thou shalt surely die " Thus changed the truth into a lie and justified that lie by a character assignation of God that followed it . Gen 3 .
I see nowhere in scripture that says one soul will be able to "torture another " Or indeed the word torture at all . and The use of such a word implies to the nature and character of God the nature and character of those 'inspired' by the devil.
Your perceptions then where do they come from?
There is then a GREAT difference between the two words and the insinuation and another 'immaculate conception ' that has creeped into the church and peoples thinking is blinding the mind of many .
I care not about 'near death experiences' if they do not conform to the scriptures they are deceived at best .
It is far more profitable to search the scriptures than you tube in these matters .
"For man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth form the mouth of God"
The whole sorry mess and grief this world is in and mans fall was due to listening to the wrong thing or word and then in consequence seeing that the fruit was good to eat and doing then what si right in their own eyes .
in Christ
gerald
The serpent when speaking to Eve point blank denied the truth by adding N O T to the truth "thou shalt surely die " Thus changed the truth into a lie and justified that lie by a character assignation of God that followed it . Gen 3 .
I see nowhere in scripture that says one soul will be able to "torture another " Or indeed the word torture at all . and The use of such a word implies to the nature and character of God the nature and character of those 'inspired' by the devil.
Your perceptions then where do they come from?
There is then a GREAT difference between the two words and the insinuation and another 'immaculate conception ' that has creeped into the church and peoples thinking is blinding the mind of many .
I care not about 'near death experiences' if they do not conform to the scriptures they are deceived at best .
It is far more profitable to search the scriptures than you tube in these matters .
"For man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth form the mouth of God"
The whole sorry mess and grief this world is in and mans fall was due to listening to the wrong thing or word and then in consequence seeing that the fruit was good to eat and doing then what si right in their own eyes .
in Christ
gerald
I do not know God's ultimate goal. What He told me makes no sense to me. He said, in outraged voice, that He will have all of us back. Dead and living. He said that the merest glimpse eclipses the first death and His mercy goes farther. He said we will all know when the time comes but some of us will be willfully blind. A case for universalism.
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