Don't get defensive, as my intention is to reach out to you - But do you reread what you type? I always reread what I have typed to see if I have used words that led away from what I meant. If I'm in time - I can delete. Do me a favor and reread what I posted to you. Without thinking I'm attacking. I read your posts (usually more than once) and I am not at all clear on what you are saying. I don't think I'm the only one. I'm not sure what your position is?
What is the real value of scripture?
- Thread starter nws2dc
- Start date
Don't get defensive, as my intention is to reach out to you - But do you reread what you type? I always reread what I have typed to see if I have used words that led away from what I meant. If I'm in time - I can delete. Do me a favor and reread what I posted to you. Without thinking I'm attacking. I read your posts (usually more than once) and I am not at all clear on what you are saying. I don't think I'm the only one. I'm not sure what your position is?
The problem with the written word is that people can misunderstand the mind and the intent of the writer.
I was simply seeking to answer your objections.
For I had before quite clearly stated my position on studying Greek and Hebrew .
But have also stated the dangers also .
I have also I thought stated what the only qualification for the ministry is . Which in a nut shell is the calling and anointing of God.
Which also would or should take more than that if it is not understood from it .
Of course a good and through knowledge of the Bible is important.
But here is the rub or my contention.
That in the main the whole emphasis is on the Word of God and almost exclusively so with only a passing reference and nod as it were to the Holy Spirit and the vital need for HIS leading men into all truth .
The disarray confusion and lack of a common understanding on some very grave matters concerning the church is evidence of that fact.
That as well as the BODY of truth which is the Bible . We needs must have the Spirit of truth also.
But I have already stated this .
I did ask at what point in my argument did you not understand or object to . A reasonable request .
Or I lost you.
Then at least I know where I can go back and put it another way at the point I did .
Or answer your objections.
As things stand you would seem to say you understood nothing of what I said .
I find this hard to believe .
in Christ
gerald
I can't think of anyone who posts here that doesn't feel one will not get to the heart of scriptural meaning without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the author. All believers who accept Christ as their Savior, in their heart are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If you want to call it annointing then we all are. When I first came here, to CFS, arguments would rage all by people who were told by the HS that they were right. And their HS contradicted what others saw. You may believe the HS is talking with you but no one seems to check/test. One past poster started a thread called something like proof of the HS. And he claimed all photo orbs were the HS. No matter what anyone said, no one could tell him otherwise. The Holy Spirit's role is described in scripture. He is to lead us to Christ and glorify Him. The HS does not lead us wrong but we can delude ourselves into thinking He is telling us something He is not. If it contradicts scripture, in context, it is not from God. To glorify the HS over and separate from Christ is error. Scripture, untwisted and unsculpted, is one of the only things that you can use to keep yourself from error, as well as others. All the big money grabbers talk of how they are more filled than anyone else with the HS who tells them things that contradict scripture. They are liars. So I think? we agree?
I do not dispute what you have said at all save the last point in that we know "the spirit of error by the Spirit of truth" and not by scripture alone.
In that regard then is one reason why I present a biblical argument rather than just quote scriptures .
The scriptures that I do use then are those that are pertinent to that argument and which uphold it .Without taking them out of their contextual meaning. The Holy Spirit does not only lead us to Christ as saviour . But leads is to Christ as Lord and King. He also leads us to present our bodies a living sacrifice ... as he also "leads us into all truth "
Even in this site there are disputes and disagreements as to those things that pertain to the coming of the Lord.
But that is another issue.
I do not disagree wit you then as to what you have said here . I simply do not agree with the idea that many seem to eb getting that the qualifications of any true minister of God is what is written on a certificate or the approval of men .
For reasons already stated and argued.
in Christ
gerald
Some of the best advice I received at CFS was to read and type posts, asking the HS to help me. I expanded that to whatever I read...and then whatever I watched. And whenever I prayed. As followers of Christ we are all convicted to show in word and deed to testify where our hearts are. I wish we all learned the same at the same time but that's not how it happens. Of course you are going to see disagreements - the thing is - we don't learn if we don't listen and everyone is on a different part of the journey. You can avoid nasty arguments while still stating why you see what you see, scripture that backs it and question the same from another poster if you don't understand where they are coming from and why. When you feel you have explained your points as best you can - let it go. Maybe they will come to see it later, or surprise maybe you will. It is foolish to think one knows it all and it's important for your own correction to look to learn something that hasn't occurred to you before. And it's a joy. I don't remember a time when I didn't believe in God but every time I see a new (to me) truth, I feel newborn.
The atheist is faithful to bring out textual variances, yet they are not able to disqualify life-saving "truth" that comes from scripture. There are over four hundred thousand textual variations in the new testament alone (primarily typos) from thousands of copied manuscripts that comprise the bible translations that we read. Yet all them support the same truth that scripture teaches with incredible accuracy.
Over 5 thousand Greek manuscripts in history bear witness of Christ and Him crucified, also that scripture is in harmony with what it says. There are also over 10 thousand manuscripts in Latin; all bear witness to scriptural integrity. As the speaker below will state, its an embarrassment of riches which brings integrity to biblical scripture.
Daniel Wallace - Director of the center of new testament manuscripts
Rofl...I enjoyed that video! I didn't know where he was going with what he said until the end. My first thoughts were not about the modern day bibles that I do think have serious flaws in as they "modernize". I will stick to KJV and in a pinch NASB. My second thoughts were the NT has a lot of reference flowing from the OT. And the Jews were very particular about scribes and copying. You made one splotch wrong and the whole scroll gets done over. Letter for letter, they are finding from Qumran, that the dead sea scrolls dating minimum 68 AD, all match the Jews OT, almost perfectly. http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm So, I'm not so much feeling that the 66 books aren't just what the HS wrote. God breathed Canon. The NT, as the video says, is pretty much the right story.
By the way, the Dr.Eisenman named in my link above, also wrote a really interesting book on James, the Righteous/Just - brother of Jesus, who not only presided over the Jerusalem Christians, Eisenman theorizes that James may well be the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned and head of the Qumran Essenes. He compares the letter in Acts as almost a match for a letter sent to a King outside Israel. Fascinating read.
I believe we will still grow in understanding in heaven. We do not suddenly turn into angels, monkeys or gods. We are forever the human race just beneath angels. Know fully = utilize 100% of human brain capacity and grasp past, not future or truths that God still has to share with us.
I don't think its a disagreement. Your posts are really good. Its just a communication issue.
I do not accept that assertion in isolation.
For one thing I have too heard that there are corrupted texts and from which Jerome(?) and now others have used as their foundation for their 'translations'
I have also heard a good argument as to the uncorrupted texts that are perfectly acceptable and reliable .
It is not enough to say that ALL of them both corrupted and uncorrupted are much the same as they both bare witness of Christ .
Thus while what you say is true as to corrupted texts . It is but a half truth which is no good at all.
The result is not what you claim that they all support the truth with incredible accuracy.
For many new translations based on such foundations have omitted and added and some deny some very basic truths all together .
Another reason why learning Greek and Hebrew is not enough if there has been the use of corrupted texts.
in Christ
gerald
ALL scripture is
"ALL given by inspiration by inspiration of God....."
It is the perfect revelation of God and what is in the Bible is for our instruction in righteousness the knowledge of God correction and reproof.
The scriptures are waters up to the ankles to the loins and waters to swim in.
Not sure what you mean as "future truths "
In the knowledge of God , you have the knowledge of "little children" Ye know the father and your sins are forgiven " 1john.
There is the knowledge of ye "young men "
and there is the knowledge of "ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning"
Now He who is from the beginning is the Creator. But seeing that it seems the vast majority of preachers and teachers and in consequence the church no longer believe God as to the beginning as it is written or have grave doubts about it . How then can they know Him who is from the beginning?
That is the past .
But he who is in the beginning is also at the end and seeing that not many it seems believe God about the end or have grave doubts about it . How can they know Him who is at the end?
But if you mean something else then what sayeth the scriptures?
John 16:13
"How be it when the Spirit of truth ,has come ,He will guide you into all truth fro he shall not speak of Himself ,but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak and He wills how you things to COME"
Or from another direction but the same truth .
What of the Serophonecian woman who Jesus said had "great faith"?
There was only two people Jesus said had "great faith " and they were both gentiles .
The Roman centurian and this lovely woman ,
Peter who walked on water had " oh ye of little faith"
These two people had great faith. Why?
Because as Jesus said " he came to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal " His ministry was to the Jews FIRST and "it was not meet to give the childrens bread to the dogs.
The dispensation to the gentiles would only come after the Jews in general had rejected the kingdom and the King. When it would be then offered to the gentiles.
The scriptures tell us of things past present and future . Johns revelation was not of himself but what he heard and saw he spoke and was given things past present and future as well. Why and for who? For us unto whom the ends of the world has come .Why? that the Bride might stand four square .Knowing from whence she came .Where she is and where she is going.
This woman then by the Lords first silence then by words of; it seemed rejection led her from faith to faith and from a place where she could not receive what she asked for or sought to a place where her faith could reach from one dispensation to another yet to come .
That is why it was great faith .
The church has robbed itself and allowed itself to be robbed .
I am not talking about supposed truths not substantiated by scripture that is 'beyond' scripture . But truths that are ROOTED in scripture and are of "the seed which is the Word of God." or in another words are the fruit of the seed . Both in doctrine and manifested in life .
Thus while the church that only teaches and preaches but the milk of the Word as listed in Hebrew s. It will get no further than "little children"
The mind is not all is perceived to be and cannot so easily grasp if at all spiritual truths in and of itself .
It does enable us to articulate the that lieth with in us or those spiritual truths we have "seen" or understood and heard .
But it is in our spirits that we grasp far better the things of God and sometimes the mind has to follow after .
For we can be told the truth as it is in Christ and the Holy Spirit bares witness to the truth of it to our spirit. But we don't know why it is true .
For example I heard a man of God once preach a message on the scripture that says " as the brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so shall the Son of man be lifted up" In the message he said "when the lord hung on the cross ,He was ground between the millstones of Gods wrath " and I thought where is that in scripture!? But in my spirit it rang true and from experience I had never known this man to abuse scripture.
So I hid it in my heart and chewed on it often.
I think it was 10 years down the line when I was was meditating on the scripture of the parables and the seed is the Word of God .The Lord reminded me of the conundrum I had been trying to understand for a long time and asked how do you get bread?
By grinding the corn of wheat between millstones to get the flour to make bread .
Is not Jesus the bread of life?
and while the mind and the Spirit can be in perfect harmony as it were and things can be seen and understood as soon as they are heard .
It should be remembered that it was to Christians that Paul was praying for (and good ones at that given rev 2) that "the eyes of their understanding maybe opened ...................." Eph 1
in Christ
gerald
"ALL given by inspiration by inspiration of God....."
It is the perfect revelation of God and what is in the Bible is for our instruction in righteousness the knowledge of God correction and reproof.
The scriptures are waters up to the ankles to the loins and waters to swim in.
Not sure what you mean as "future truths "
In the knowledge of God , you have the knowledge of "little children" Ye know the father and your sins are forgiven " 1john.
There is the knowledge of ye "young men "
and there is the knowledge of "ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning"
Now He who is from the beginning is the Creator. But seeing that it seems the vast majority of preachers and teachers and in consequence the church no longer believe God as to the beginning as it is written or have grave doubts about it . How then can they know Him who is from the beginning?
That is the past .
But he who is in the beginning is also at the end and seeing that not many it seems believe God about the end or have grave doubts about it . How can they know Him who is at the end?
But if you mean something else then what sayeth the scriptures?
John 16:13
"How be it when the Spirit of truth ,has come ,He will guide you into all truth fro he shall not speak of Himself ,but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak and He wills how you things to COME"
Or from another direction but the same truth .
What of the Serophonecian woman who Jesus said had "great faith"?
There was only two people Jesus said had "great faith " and they were both gentiles .
The Roman centurian and this lovely woman ,
Peter who walked on water had " oh ye of little faith"
These two people had great faith. Why?
Because as Jesus said " he came to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal " His ministry was to the Jews FIRST and "it was not meet to give the childrens bread to the dogs.
The dispensation to the gentiles would only come after the Jews in general had rejected the kingdom and the King. When it would be then offered to the gentiles.
The scriptures tell us of things past present and future . Johns revelation was not of himself but what he heard and saw he spoke and was given things past present and future as well. Why and for who? For us unto whom the ends of the world has come .Why? that the Bride might stand four square .Knowing from whence she came .Where she is and where she is going.
This woman then by the Lords first silence then by words of; it seemed rejection led her from faith to faith and from a place where she could not receive what she asked for or sought to a place where her faith could reach from one dispensation to another yet to come .
That is why it was great faith .
The church has robbed itself and allowed itself to be robbed .
I am not talking about supposed truths not substantiated by scripture that is 'beyond' scripture . But truths that are ROOTED in scripture and are of "the seed which is the Word of God." or in another words are the fruit of the seed . Both in doctrine and manifested in life .
Thus while the church that only teaches and preaches but the milk of the Word as listed in Hebrew s. It will get no further than "little children"
The mind is not all is perceived to be and cannot so easily grasp if at all spiritual truths in and of itself .
It does enable us to articulate the that lieth with in us or those spiritual truths we have "seen" or understood and heard .
But it is in our spirits that we grasp far better the things of God and sometimes the mind has to follow after .
For we can be told the truth as it is in Christ and the Holy Spirit bares witness to the truth of it to our spirit. But we don't know why it is true .
For example I heard a man of God once preach a message on the scripture that says " as the brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so shall the Son of man be lifted up" In the message he said "when the lord hung on the cross ,He was ground between the millstones of Gods wrath " and I thought where is that in scripture!? But in my spirit it rang true and from experience I had never known this man to abuse scripture.
So I hid it in my heart and chewed on it often.
I think it was 10 years down the line when I was was meditating on the scripture of the parables and the seed is the Word of God .The Lord reminded me of the conundrum I had been trying to understand for a long time and asked how do you get bread?
By grinding the corn of wheat between millstones to get the flour to make bread .
Is not Jesus the bread of life?
and while the mind and the Spirit can be in perfect harmony as it were and things can be seen and understood as soon as they are heard .
It should be remembered that it was to Christians that Paul was praying for (and good ones at that given rev 2) that "the eyes of their understanding maybe opened ...................." Eph 1
in Christ
gerald
What he said
What is the context?
Of knowing God and ourselves .
For we know not what we shall be .But we know that when we see him we shall be like him for we shall see him as He is .
But now we see in a mirror dimly.......
The gospel however has been reduced to the barest minimum of being BORN again.
The scripture you quote hardly does it justice in this context .
For to eb BORN a child knows little or nothing .
He too does not know what eh shall be .
But is he not expected to grow?
to become a "father"?
and what then do you think it means to "know Him who is from the beginning"?
You may not know yet .
But that does not mean you cannot and clearly John was speaking to people that within 50 (?) years had become "ye fathers ye know Him who is form the beginning"!
Gerald....I do not have a point of disagreement with you or even an argument with you. I am trying to be a nice as I can and I do not want to disrespect you or hurt you but I am trying real hard to try and grasp what you are trying to say.
You have a way of writing that is "rambling" in nature from one thought to another and you do not seem to be able to tie anything together. It seems to me that you run everything together which makes it real hard to follow.
Now this may just be me, but if you would try to shorten your comments a little and focus on only one thing at a time, it would help me if you and I are to communicate.
May the Lord bless you!
Well said!
Gerald.......Your past comments indicated that you DID NOT think a man needed to attend any college to improve his knowledge.
Now you just said...............
"I have clearly stated that I am NOT against education and learning Greek and Hebrew."
Then in the next sentence you said........
But I have also stated that is NOT the qualification any man of God teacher preacher or any other minister as listed in Ephesians .
Isn't that a little disingenuous? Do you see where you said one thing and then said the opposite. This is what I was saying in another post about how you say things in a "rambling" manner without tieing thoughts together.
No one said anyone need to learn Greek or Hebrew. We (I) was referring to being educated in Biblical Studies so as to be able to RIGHTLY divide the Word of God.
THINK!
If a man is moved or called to be a "nuclear weapons scientist ", do you think that he should attend some sort of higher education in that field.
If a man has the feeling that he is being lead to be a "brain surgeon", do you think that he should try and increase his knowledge of the brain before he operates on YOU?
If a man has the feeling or has been called to be an auto mechanic, do you think he should try to increase his ability before he works on YOUR car?
I am not saying that there are not wonderful men in the Christian field whose heart is right and they are doing wonderful things for their church. That is not my point at all. My point is how much greater could they be doing if they were educated in some of the finer and more detailed teaching that are found in the Scriptures.
Because they are NOT, and they listen to someone on TV or radio or read commentaries of those who have personal agendas, we have over the years seen all kinds of perverted Biblical doctrines come into the church.
As a result, TODAY the church argues over whether or not abortion is a sin.
As a result, TODAY the church argues over whether or not homosexuality is a sin.
As a result, TODAY the church argues over whether or not the death penalty is right or wrong.
I hope he understand what I was trying to say to him!! I was NOT trying to be mean spirited in anyway and I know you are not either!
As it does also to me!