Were There Humans In Heaven Before Jesus Ascended.

VictorianLady said:
Exactly! We are made in the image of God and they hate that.
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And if the blood line was contaminated with the bllod of demons...........How do YOU know, or how does anyone know that one of the children of Noah did not have demon blood ?????

That logically means that there would be NO way to know that demon blood was not in the line of Joseph or even Mary.

So, are you comfortable then knowing that Jesus Christ was then NOT the perfect Son of God, God in the flesh. That means YOU and ME are not saved and NO ONE is saved.
 
VictorianLady said:
Exactly! We don't know what powers the angels have. We can't just assume the angels can't do something when even us humans have found ways around our natural way to do what we want. Angels have powers we don't have and powers we can't understand. They are not gods, but they can do more than we can. We don't know what they can't do. We only know what God doesn't want them to do.
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Actually we CAN KNOW that angels can not have sexual relations. They are SPITITUAL!
forgiven61 said:
this stuff demons crossing the blood line is strange fire its not bible
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Thanks..........And that is exactly what I have been saying!!!
 
Big Moose said:
Of course they do not need to eat, and yes it was about common courtesy of the day. The point we were making was that they could eat as we do because they had a body that functioned as our bodies do, complete with feet that got dirty, mouths to chew and therefore, stomachs and the rest of the body parts because they called them "men". The men of Sodom even wanted them because the angels were men, or technically transformed into men, but men in the physical sense that we understand. These same angels had the power to strike people with blindness, causing physical changes in another person's body. Why would you think, then, that they would not be able to cause a pregnancy?
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That makes sense......However, looks are always deceiving. Everything you said Moose is adding to what is found in the Bible.

Feet got dirty becuse they used them to walk on.
Because they ate does not men that they have a male organ. That is conjecture.
The men wanted them because they appeared to be MEN!

They could not cause a woman to be pregnant because there is NOT ONE SINGLE Scripture that says that angels can procreate!!!!
 
Is it just not possible, that these demons are just the collection of our pagan world cultures, wrong beliefs, bad habits, and other sinful tendencies we have collected through lack of obedience to God and Jesus that we see in ourselves from our sin nature that just so happen to have snowballed into a stronghold of repeat performances we now find hard to break? in other words, they are in us, all of us, and rather than be real tangible physical beings they are just part of our subconscious because we have disowned them or ignored them or something like the psychologists say?
 
Via dolarossa said:
Is it just not possible, that these demons are just the collection of our pagan world cultures, wrong beliefs, bad habits, and other sinful tendencies we have collected through lack of obedience to God and Jesus that we see in ourselves from our sin nature that just so happen to have snowballed into a stronghold of repeat performances we now find hard to break? in other words, they are in us, all of us, and rather than be real tangible physical beings they are just part of our subconscious because we have disowned them or ignored them or something like the psychologists say?
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What you are talking about is the SIN NATURE! We are all born with a sin nature thanks to Adam and Eve. It never ever goes away until we die.

However.....demons are fallen angels and those are real corporal beings who disobeyed God and were cast out of heaven,.

However..........we need to get back to the original thread of ...There were NO HUMANS in heaven before Jesus ascended.
 
Major said:
Satan has access to heaven today as he did in Job.

He will not be completly removed until Revelation when he is cast out and removed.
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Where is THAT scripture? I don't think evil can exist in the presence of God. Scripture states Jesus saying that He saw Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.
 
Major said:
I do not agree with you my brother. I have made it a point to post Bible Scriptures so as to make sure everyone know that I am NOT giving MY POV.

Jesus was called "THE" Son of God because He was the Son of God. BEGOTTEN means "ONE AND ONLY".

Correct in that He was INCARNATED through Mary by the HS.

Now to say that it does not matter is I accept the record from the Bible. Do YOU actually believe that?????

To say that "The Sons of God bred with human women." and that is what the Bible says.......Is just not correct!

The Bible does not say anything about demons or fallen angels mating with women.
It is what YOU want the Bible to say because that is what you have been told and it sounds goo so you believe it---but in fact it does not say that at all.

Genesis 6:1-4.........
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Now please tell the world where in those Scriptures are the words...Fallen angels, demons, !
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You just posted the scripture that states angels mating with the daughters of men.

Genesis 6:1-4.........
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God (as opposed to "men" earlier in the verse, this is always angels in the Old Testament) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

If the "sons of God" were just other men, it would say men or sons of Seth, or sons of Adam"
 
Big Moose said:
You just posted the scripture that states angels mating with the daughters of men.

Genesis 6:1-4.........
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God (as opposed to "men" earlier in the verse, this is always angels in the Old Testament) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

If the "sons of God" were just other men, it would say men or sons of Seth, or sons of Adam"
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NO Moose I did not. I posted exactly what the KJV says. No more and NO less.
YOU add............. (as opposed to "men" earlier in the verse, this is always angels in the Old Testament) !!!

Again.........allow me to explain the correct exegesis of ALL SCRIPTURE. It is always determined by CONTEXT and LOCATION.

NO WHERE in Genesis 6 is there any mention of FALLEN ANGELS or DEMONS!. That only comes from a very old understanding going all the way back to the 1st church and the Jewish Talmud. That myth was based on Job 1:6................
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
CONTEXT = ANGELS,...........LOCATION = HEAVEN!.
The book of Job is older than Moses writings so then, Where does God live...HEAVEN. At the that time were there any human men in heaven with God. So then who are the "SON OF GOD"????? They by CONTEXT and LOCATION must be angels.

Now in Genesis 6,,,,,,,,,,,where is the LOCATION....the EARTH.............What is the CONTEXT..............when men began to multiply on the face of the earth!!!!

Moose.....this is not rocket science!
 
Big Moose said:
Where is THAT scripture? I don't think evil can exist in the presence of God. Scripture states Jesus saying that He saw Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.
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Job 1:6 (ESV)
" Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them".

Since God is holy and absolutely without sin (Isaiah 6:3), and since He will not even look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13), how can Satan be in heaven? The answer involves God’s sovereign restraint of sin. In Job 1, Satan stood before God to give an account of himself. God initiated the meeting, led the proceedings, and remained in absolute control (verse 7). The result was that Satan’s power was limited (verse 12) and God was glorified.

Here are some other facts to note: ........
1) Satan does not have open access to God’s presence. He is summoned by God.
2) The visits are temporary. His time before God’s throne is limited.
3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, "quarantined," as it were, by God’s regulatory power. And,
4) Satan’s access is only granted prior to the final judgment. A

Bless you Moose for asking!
 
Major said:
Now in Genesis 6,,,,,,,,,,,where is the LOCATION....the EARTH.............What is the CONTEXT..............when men began to multiply on the face of the earth!!!!
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I agree, the location is the Earth. That is where sons of God (angels) came in unto the daughters of men. This is explained in Jude that the angels left their first estate and habitation. You just can't get around the scripture spelling this out!

2 Peter 2: also indicates this:
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
 
all i want to know is where this off the wall theory . that demons crossed the blood line and angels had sex with women come from. just the other day a Christian came to me saying angels reproduced with humans absurd
 
Big Moose said:
I agree, the location is the Earth. That is where sons of God (angels) came in unto the daughters of men. This is explained in Jude that the angels left their first estate and habitation. You just can't get around the scripture spelling this out!

2 Peter 2: also indicates this:
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
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Now Moose...........lets read ALL of Jude 6..............
"“And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.”
Those fallen angels are bound waiting to be judged. Do YOU see it?????

Again we see the very same thing in 2 Peter 2: also indicates this:..........
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment..........".

Now how do you get from that to fallen angels mating with the women in Genesis 6?

You agreed that Genesis 6 is the EARTH.
Now I think you have to agree that the fallen angels you referred to are actually chained in the abyss.
How then can they be chained and bound and at the same time on the earth mating with human women??????

Moose......believe me please when I tell you that it is very difficult to accept something that we have never heard before or something that is not what we want to hear. All I can ask anyone to do is to put aside what you have been told....and read the BIBLE! Allow it to speak to you!
 
forgiven61 said:
all i want to know is where this off the wall theory . that demons crossed the blood line and angels had sex with women come from. just the other day a Christian came to me saying angels reproduced with humans absurd
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Good question. The theory comes from Jewish Tradition. I for one do not know "when".

I do know that there seems to be a fascination with demons going back to the 3rd century.

The whole thing, "Demons having sex with Humans" show a real lack of thinking through what is being said.

First and foremost, the notion that demons can “produce” real bodies and have real sex with real women would invalidate Jesus’ argument for the authenticity of His resurrection. Jesus assured His disciples that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39).

Furthermore, demons are nonsexual, nonphysical beings and, as such, are incapable of having sexual relations and producing physical offspring. There is ZERO evidence that demons have DNA so reproducing is impossible.

Then, if demons were able to produce humanlike bodies and have sex with women, how do we know that the resurrected Jesus was not a demon? Why couldn’t a demon have taken on the form of Jesus and deceived all of the witnesses? For that matter, why couldn’t demons have taken the form of men throughout the Scriptures systematically deceiving both Jews and Christians? Remember that God had to give Satan special permission to torment Job. No such exchange is discussed in this matter.

Then, I believe that only God has the right to create life. Here is an interesting thought. “To say that demons can create bodies with DNA and fertile sperm is to say that demons have creative power – which is an exclusively GODLY prerogative”.
 
Major said:
Moose......believe me please when I tell you that it is very difficult to accept something that we have never heard before or something that is not what we want to hear. All I can ask anyone to do is to put aside what you have been told....and read the BIBLE! Allow it to speak to you!
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That is exactly what I have been exhorting you to do. :)

Major said:
You agreed that Genesis 6 is the EARTH.
Now I think you have to agree that the fallen angels you referred to are actually chained in the abyss.
How then can they be chained and bound and at the same time on the earth mating with human women??????
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I don't know why you are not understanding this. There was war in heaven, recorded in Revelation. Fallen angels went to the earth. Some of them became the demons which possess humans throughout history and are in scripture in the gospels when Jesus cast them into the swine, among other instances. The demons are even recorded saying to Jesus, " What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" The "time" would be at the last day.
The others transformed into human form and took wives of the daughters of men as it says in Genesis 6. These are the angels spoken of in Jude and 1 and 2 Peter, which, by the way, all record these angels in prison/chains followed directly after in the next verse by referencing the days of Noah in Genesis 6.
Now I pose the question back to you. How are fallen angels possessing humans in the Gospels and even to our day when the fallen angels are in prison, chained until the last day? You have a problem of angels in two places at the same time. When we take the scriptures as they are, we find out why some angels are in prison and others are demons possessing humans. And we find "sons of God" in the OT are angels every time.
 
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Big Moose said:
That is exactly what I have been exhorting you to do. :)


I don't know why you are not understanding this. There was war in heaven, recorded in Revelation. Fallen angels went to the earth. Some of them became the demons which possess humans throughout history and are in scripture in the gospels when Jesus cast them into the swine, among other instances. The demons are even recorded saying to Jesus, " What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" The "time" would be at the last day.
The others transformed into human form and took wives of the daughters of men as it says in Genesis 6. These are the angels spoken of in Jude and 1 and 2 Peter, which, by the way, all record these angels in prison/chains followed directly after in the next verse by referencing the days of Noah in Genesis 6.
Now I pose the question back to you. How are fallen angels possessing humans in the Gospels and even to our day when the fallen angels are in prison, chained until the last day? You have a problem of angels in two places at the same time. When we take the scriptures as they are, we find out why some angels are in prison and others are demons possessing humans. And we find "sons of God" in the OT are angels every time.
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Moose.........the war in heaven in the Revelation HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE !!!!

"THE Time"{...yes, the last part of the Tribulation Period just as the Scriptures say.
The last great angelic battle and Satan’s ultimate expulsion from heaven are described in Revelation 12:7–12. In this passage, John sees a great war between Michael and the angels of God and the dragon (Satan) and his fallen angels or demons that will take place in the end times.

A common misconception is that Satan and his demons were locked away in hell after the fall of Satan. It is clear from many Bible passages that Satan was not barred from heaven or the earth after his first rebellion, which predated the creation. In Job 1:1—2:8, he appears before God to accuse Job of ulterior motives in his worship of God. In Zechariah 3, he again appears before God to accuse Joshua, the high priest. Indeed, the name Satan means “accuser.”

The battle recorded in Revelation 12 removes Satan and his minions from this realm, the 2nd heaven!!!!

When Satan is expelled from the middle heaven, there will be great rejoicing in heaven, since the age-old accuser will be forever banned from his mission of accusation and slander against the elect.

You asked me...................
"How are fallen angels possessing humans in the Gospels and even to our day when the fallen angels are in prison, chained until the last day?"

Moose.......do you not see that there are MANY fallen angels?????

I am NOT saying that demons did not possess humans then and still today!!!!

However - SOME of the demons were so evil that God chained them in the abyss until judgment.

Some of the demons are already locked “in darkness, bound with everlasting chains” just as is seen in Jude 6..................
" And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day"...... for their sin.

This of course refers to the rebellion in heaven that Satan led against God in the dawn of human history and 1/3 of the angels followed him (Isaiah 14:12–21; Ezekiel 28:12–19) and that = the 1st group!

Then the 2nd group or the Others are free to roam and are referred to as “the powers of this dark world and . . . the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” in Ephesians 6:12 & Colossians 2:15.
 
Big Moose said:
That is exactly what I have been exhorting you to do. :)


I don't know why you are not understanding this. There was war in heaven, recorded in Revelation. Fallen angels went to the earth. Some of them became the demons which possess humans throughout history and are in scripture in the gospels when Jesus cast them into the swine, among other instances. The demons are even recorded saying to Jesus, " What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" The "time" would be at the last day.
The others transformed into human form and took wives of the daughters of men as it says in Genesis 6. These are the angels spoken of in Jude and 1 and 2 Peter, which, by the way, all record these angels in prison/chains followed directly after in the next verse by referencing the days of Noah in Genesis 6.
Now I pose the question back to you. How are fallen angels possessing humans in the Gospels and even to our day when the fallen angels are in prison, chained until the last day? You have a problem of angels in two places at the same time. When we take the scriptures as they are, we find out why some angels are in prison and others are demons possessing humans. And we find "sons of God" in the OT are angels every time.
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this is sci fi boloney it does not line up with scripture
 
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