The Reason the Church is Floundering....

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crossnote said:
4. Our words do not create reality. (IOW we are not little gods.)
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Funny......that is exactly what Benny Hinn used to preach.........."There is a spark of divinity in all of us as we are little gods"!

Benny Hinn said..............
"God came from heaven, became a man, made man into little gods, went back to heaven as a man. He faces the Father as a man. I face devils as the son of God. Quit your nonsense! What else are you? If you say, I am, you’re saying I’m a part of Him, right? Is he God? Are you His offspring? Are you His children? You can’t be human! You can’t! You can’t! God didn’t give birth to flesh…You said, ‘Well, that’s heresy.’ No, that’s your crazy brain saying that."
Source: (Benny Hinn, Our Position in Christ #2—The Word Made Flesh Orlando Christian Center, 1991).
 
Major said:
That is correct!


R.L. Whitworth had been senior pastor of one of the largest Assemblies of God churches, Calvary Assembly, for 30 years when he wrote the book God Told Me to Tell You.

In it, Whitworth not only exposes the false demonstrations of "the word of knowledge," but also ably condemns the doctrines of the word-faith teachers. He too equates the "name-it and claim-it" theory as a "repeat of the Science of Mind ideas of Earnest Holmes," founder of the New Age church of Religious Science. (R.L. Whitworth, God Told Me to Tell You, p. 121).

Dr. George Wood, an Assistant Superintendent of the Assemblies of God, a pentecostal, writes about the multitude of people he has seen who have experienced "devastating spiritual and psychological damage caused by the positive confession movement."
Source:https://www.watchman.org/articles/other-religious-topics/word-faith-theology/
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What is so dangerous is that in many areas of missions, such as in Africa and south america, wof is the major "christianity" being pushed!
 
Major said:
Funny......that is exactly what Benny Hinn used to preach.........."There is a spark of divinity in all of us as we are little gods"!

Benny Hinn said..............
"God came from heaven, became a man, made man into little gods, went back to heaven as a man. He faces the Father as a man. I face devils as the son of God. Quit your nonsense! What else are you? If you say, I am, you’re saying I’m a part of Him, right? Is he God? Are you His offspring? Are you His children? You can’t be human! You can’t! You can’t! God didn’t give birth to flesh…You said, ‘Well, that’s heresy.’ No, that’s your crazy brain saying that."
Source: (Benny Hinn, Our Position in Christ #2—The Word Made Flesh Orlando Christian Center, 1991).
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He also staed that Giod spoke to him while on his jet that each member of the trinity is truine Himself!
 
YeshuaFan said:
What is so dangerous is that in many areas of missions, such as in Africa and south america, wof is the major "christianity" being pushed!
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Yes it is.

WHY????

Having been there.....Uganda, and still in communication with a dear friend of mine there, Pastor Kasimbo, one has to grasp the thinking of the people in Africa.

The African spiritual worldview consists of four tiers:

1. God
2. Angels and demons
3. Ancestral spirits
4. Human beings.

The thinking there is that although God is a benevolent, loving, and caring Being, unless the beings that dwell in layers #2 and #3 that lie between him and us are appeased, his blessings cannot reach us. It is, therefore, important to appease the ancestral spirits and defeat the demons. Only after that will God’s blessings come upon us.

This is where in African traditional religions witch-doctors come in. They are the people with the mysterious power to break through these two layers. They tell us what we must do in order to appease the spirits of our forefathers. They also engage the demons for us through their midnight trances, dances, and incense.

So, a person who is beset with perennial illnesses, failing to get a job, failing to find a spouse or to have children, whose business is failing to thrive, etc., simply goes to the witch-doctor who alone has the key to look into the spirit world. He is told that it is either a deceased person or an evil spirit who is frustrating him.

What the modern charismatic movement in Africa has done is to simply take this entire erroneous superstructure of African religious worldview and baptize it with wrongly applied Bible verses and Christian language. The only difference is that the layer of dead ancestors and evil spirits is now one hotchpotch of confusion. This is why the nonsense of demons becoming spirit husbands and wives, and wrecking havoc in marriages, is taken for granted! This is also why the heresy of generation curses has become so popular. In men’s minds, bad luck can be passed on from that layer of dead ancestors.

In the African charismatic circles, the ‘man of God’ has replaced the witch-doctor. He is the one who oozes with mysterious power that enables him to break through those two impregnable layers, which us lesser mortals cannot penetrate. So, when blessings are not flowing our way despite our prayers, we make a beeline to his quarters or his church for help. This explains the throngs in these circles. The crowds are not looking for someone to explain to them the way to find pardon with God. No! They want the ‘man of God’ to pray for them. This also explains the stranglehold that ‘men of God’ have on the minds of their devotees in these circles. In the evangelicalism of a former generation ‘men of God’ were primarily preachers of the word of God, but in the new setup they are primarily priests who enter the inner sanctuaries to bring down blessings to us.

You have to see it and experience it to understand it. This is a tragedy in the making! What is taking place produces the lowest and most simple form of religion with NO ROOTS, No basis for understanding and always leads to personal disaster.
 
Major said:
Yes it is.

WHY????

Having been there.....Uganda, and still in communication with a dear friend of mine there, Pastor Kasimbo, one has to grasp the thinking of the people in Africa.

The African spiritual worldview consists of four tiers:

1. God
2. Angels and demons
3. Ancestral spirits
4. Human beings.

The thinking there is that although God is a benevolent, loving, and caring Being, unless the beings that dwell in layers #2 and #3 that lie between him and us are appeased, his blessings cannot reach us. It is, therefore, important to appease the ancestral spirits and defeat the demons. Only after that will God’s blessings come upon us.

This is where in African traditional religions witch-doctors come in. They are the people with the mysterious power to break through these two layers. They tell us what we must do in order to appease the spirits of our forefathers. They also engage the demons for us through their midnight trances, dances, and incense.

So, a person who is beset with perennial illnesses, failing to get a job, failing to find a spouse or to have children, whose business is failing to thrive, etc., simply goes to the witch-doctor who alone has the key to look into the spirit world. He is told that it is either a deceased person or an evil spirit who is frustrating him.

What the modern charismatic movement in Africa has done is to simply take this entire erroneous superstructure of African religious worldview and baptize it with wrongly applied Bible verses and Christian language. The only difference is that the layer of dead ancestors and evil spirits is now one hotchpotch of confusion. This is why the nonsense of demons becoming spirit husbands and wives, and wrecking havoc in marriages, is taken for granted! This is also why the heresy of generation curses has become so popular. In men’s minds, bad luck can be passed on from that layer of dead ancestors.

In the African charismatic circles, the ‘man of God’ has replaced the witch-doctor. He is the one who oozes with mysterious power that enables him to break through those two impregnable layers, which us lesser mortals cannot penetrate. So, when blessings are not flowing our way despite our prayers, we make a beeline to his quarters or his church for help. This explains the throngs in these circles. The crowds are not looking for someone to explain to them the way to find pardon with God. No! They want the ‘man of God’ to pray for them. This also explains the stranglehold that ‘men of God’ have on the minds of their devotees in these circles. In the evangelicalism of a former generation ‘men of God’ were primarily preachers of the word of God, but in the new setup they are primarily priests who enter the inner sanctuaries to bring down blessings to us.

You have to see it and experience it to understand it. This is a tragedy in the making! What is taking place produces the lowest and most simple form of religion with NO ROOTS, No basis for understanding and always leads to personal disaster.
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The bottom line is that they are teaching doctrines of Demons, as its not the Holy Spirit involves in those ministries, but spirit of Antichrist!
 
Major said:
When it was completed then there was no need for apostles, prophets , new revelations r tongues.
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i stated that these offices are through the preacher imo as per tongues i do believe there is a gift of tongues . how ever i am not so sure as in how it is today.. i just leave those folks alone as i have several friends who use tongues.
 
crossnote said:
I guess your point is that the WOF movement is not the Church, (so why discuss it?)
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no i have not said it i am sure they are saved just the doctrine is bit off .. at this point i see no discussion on why the Church is floundering . you guys are discussing Benny Hinn i dont even bother with him or Copeland in fact i dont think i have ever listened to them in full . if i feel it is strange fire . i dont give it the time of day . i will try one last time of the o.p could it be the Church is floundering due to a lack of desire ? the old timers had revival's tent meetings brush harbor . use to the Methodist preached just like the Baptist. there was a time area churches use to hold joint services once a month.. they had church when there was no padded pews central heat or air . we have improved with our buildings and utilities. but are we improving with quality of services would a general Baptist be allowed to preach in a southern Baptist pulpit ? or vice versa . who is the church about ? lets see how far this gets minus the wof movement
 
forgiven61 said:
i stated that these offices are through the preacher imo as per tongues i do believe there is a gift of tongues . how ever i am not so sure as in how it is today.. i just leave those folks alone as i have several friends who use tongues.
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I am saying that Biblically, there is no such office today as Apostle or prophet and tongues, Biblically ceased as is stated in the Scriptures.

It is just not possible! NO one can meet the Bible qualifications of an Apostle and there is no need for a prophet as wehave the completed Word of God which gives us all the prophecies of God. What is needed is those who can teach the Word of God.

I wish we could discuss tongues but the rules do not allow it. All I can say is that the Scriptures say that....."Tongues will cease".
 
forgiven61 said:
no i have not said it i am sure they are saved just the doctrine is bit off .. at this point i see no discussion on why the Church is floundering . you guys are discussing Benny Hinn i dont even bother with him or Copeland in fact i dont think i have ever listened to them in full . if i feel it is strange fire . i dont give it the time of day . i will try one last time of the o.p could it be the Church is floundering due to a lack of desire ? the old timers had revival's tent meetings brush harbor . use to the Methodist preached just like the Baptist. there was a time area churches use to hold joint services once a month.. they had church when there was no padded pews central heat or air . we have improved with our buildings and utilities. but are we improving with quality of services would a general Baptist be allowed to preach in a southern Baptist pulpit ? or vice versa . who is the church about ? lets see how far this gets minus the wof movement
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Church is not about padded seats or a/c or new buildings. It is not about programs and productions. The reason given to you concerning Hinn and Copeland and the WOF pose are real and factual and since they are NOT really Christian doctrines, they have no roots. No roots means NO GROWTH!

The stage, and the lights, and the bands, and the video screens, have all just become white noise to those really seeking to encounter God. They’re ear and eye candy for an hour, but they have so little relevance in people’s daily lives that more and more of them are taking a pass.

Church has become a production of entertainment instead of worship!

If you want real church growth......Preach the Word of God with no apologies. Call sin what it is...Sin!!!!!

No not ever stand and say to your church......"I hate to tell you this but......."!

Stand and read the Word of God and say to your people........"God Said....and He meant it "!
 
forgiven61 said:
i will try one last time of the o.p could it be the Church is floundering due to a lack of desire ? the old timers had revival's tent meetings brush harbor . use to the Methodist preached just like the Baptist. there was a time area churches use to hold joint services once a month.. they had church when there was no padded pews central heat or air . we have improved with our buildings and utilities. but are we improving with quality of services would a general Baptist be allowed to preach in a southern Baptist pulpit ? or vice versa . who is the church about ? lets see how far this gets minus the wof movement
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Lack of desire? Comfort zone set too high?
How does a General Baptist preaching in a SB pulpit help matters?
Are we defining 'Church' as Baptists Methodists, Presbyterian or those called out of this world into God's Kingdom through the new birth?
Something also to ask the OP who apparently went AWOL.
 
crossnote said:
Are we defining 'Church' as Baptists Methodists, Presbyterian or those called out of this world into God's Kingdom through the new birth?
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nope not at all were talking the condition of the Church. in case any forgot. one of the issues at hand is called denomonationism . where the denom is one of the more important matters . ya know baptized into the denom to be a member/ closed communion . barriers that become strong holds. . not sure who went awol all though the church is decreasing in numbers. it could also be God pruning the vine branches . i pastor a church that once was good 50 strong. over the years man had better ideas . members started leaving i can show you families who do not even attend Church any more . 3 of the men former deacons . but yes i get out i see the condition of the Church John wrote you lost your first love your neither hot nor cold having a form of Godliness but denying the power there of . is there Hope for the Church yes
 
forgiven61 said:
nope not at all were talking the condition of the Church. in case any forgot. one of the issues at hand is called denomonationism . where the denom is one of the more important matters . ya know baptized into the denom to be a member/ closed communion . barriers that become strong holds. . not sure who went awol all though the church is decreasing in numbers. it could also be God pruning the vine branches . i pastor a church that once was good 50 strong. over the years man had better ideas . members started leaving i can show you families who do not even attend Church any more . 3 of the men former deacons . but yes i get out i see the condition of the Church John wrote you lost your first love your neither hot nor cold having a form of Godliness but denying the power there of . is there Hope for the Church yes
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Well, if you are referring to denominationalism as the culprit for the Church floundering, I'm not fully convinced, as I have seen them having positive influences and having some obstacles to faith. (The main obstacle being people lifting the denomination and it's Confessions above Jesus and Scripture).
 
crossnote said:
Well, if you are referring to denominationalism as the culprit for the Church floundering, I'm not fully convinced, as I have seen them having positive influences and having some obstacles to faith. (The main obstacle being people lifting the denomination and it's Confessions above Jesus and Scripture).
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no this is just a small part of the problem. my point was to show the unity the church use to have. casting crowns has a song they put out years ago called if we are the Body and if you have never heard it go to you tube listen to it. the culprit for the Church floundering is no one certain thing. other than i fear the things of the world are enticing. how was the early Church started after Pentecost
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forgiven61 said:
nope not at all were talking the condition of the Church. in case any forgot. one of the issues at hand is called denomonationism . where the denom is one of the more important matters . ya know baptized into the denom to be a member/ closed communion . barriers that become strong holds. . not sure who went awol all though the church is decreasing in numbers. it could also be God pruning the vine branches . i pastor a church that once was good 50 strong. over the years man had better ideas . members started leaving i can show you families who do not even attend Church any more . 3 of the men former deacons . but yes i get out i see the condition of the Church John wrote you lost your first love your neither hot nor cold having a form of Godliness but denying the power there of . is there Hope for the Church yes
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My own personal observations is that many churches begin to flounder and people leave because the message becomes watered down.

When the pastor begins to preach FOR the congregation instead of TO the congregation there is a disconnect. People who usually visit from other local churches because their pastor will not preach the Word of God. He has become wishy washy and a coward and refuses to condemn sin and call out and rebuke the sin that is all around us.

When a pastor refuses to call out same sex marriages as sin because some in his congregation have children who fit that description, that is not preaching the Word of God.

When a pastor refuses to preach the Bible fact that Hell is real and hot and a terrible place because it scares the children....tehn that is not preaching the Word of God.

When a preacher refuses to preach the Bible fact that abortion is murder and those who vote for a person who tells them they they support a woman's right to choose.....is not preaching the Word of God.

When a man, called by God to preach the Word of God does not do exactly that, then God will prune that church of the people in it so that they leave to find a man who will preach the Word of God.

I am always reminded of Nathan the prophet. He was David’s pastor. And he wasn’t afraid to expose the sin of his flock, including the king’s own sin. I see Nathan as a type of godly shepherd who weeps over the sin in his congregation. It must have grieved him deeply that David, a man whom everyone looked to as godly and righteous, was covering up sin.

David, the supposedly righteous king had broken three holy commandments:
1. He’d coveted another man’s wife and stolen her from him.
2. He’d committed adultery with her.
3. And he’d committed murder to cover it all up.

How did Nathan handle the situation? How did this preacher of holiness reprove someone who was covering a horrible sin?
Nathan looked his king straight in the eye and said......"YOU ARE THAT MAN".

Many young ministers have asked me similar questions:
“How can I deal with sin in my congregation? So many couples are divorcing, and others are living in adultery. I know I have a responsibility to preach God’s holiness to them. But I don’t want to drive anyone out of the church, either.”

My answer to these young preachers is always the same:
“Your congregation will listen to anything you have to say, if you say it through tears. You can’t beat them over the head with your message. They have to know your heart is broken. Try to bring them to repentance by preaching God’s grace. Yes, his Word is a two-edged sword. But you have to wield it wearing velvet gloves.”

This is not brain surgery or rocket science! It is real simple........2 Timothy 4:2 ......
" Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
 
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