Why Christians are Leaving Church

[aha]

This is good practice for example lets look at discipline in your own home. If your child is misbehaving you dont yell at them in front of all their other siblings do you. First you go to them alone. If they dont listen then you call on the seond witness...say if you are mum, then you call dad and then you both deal with the child. Only after thry still havent listened would you tell all the other members of the family, and if still not repentant, and this is extreme, would you consider a divorce. I mean, a banishment. Maybe to a treehouse. But they are always welcome to come back when they get hungry.

I agree to a certain point on discipline but I think it will not be apple to apple: Parental obligation to discipline a minor has some added Parental rights of being a parent to insist… btw: One cannot choose change parent

Although it may not be apple to apple to compare to Congregation-member relationship: one has the right to change their congregation.

I think the reason why the “the Church or more correct word I think: the “congregation” lost the case is that:

Their argument is a member remains a part of the congregation for life. Even citing religious freedom that leaving the congregation is “constitutionally impermissible”

But, the law, thankfully imo, think otherwise, the decision says: Just as freedom to worship is protected by the First Amendment, so also is the liberty to recede from one's religious allegiance"

https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/supreme-court/1989/10494.html

¶25 In defense of their actions the Elders claim that the Church of Christ has no doctrinal provision for withdrawal of membership. According to their beliefs, a member remains a part of the congregation for life. Like those who are born into a family, they may leave but they can never really sever the familial bond. A court's determination that Parishioner effectively withdrew her membership and thus her consent to submit to church doctrine would, according to the Elders, be a constitutionally impermissible state usurpation of religious discipline accomplished through judicial interference.


¶26 The Elders had never been confronted with a member who chose to withdraw from the church. Because disciplinary proceedings against Parishioner had already commenced when she withdrew her membership, the Elders concluded their actions could not be hindered by her withdrawal and would be protected by the First Amendment. Parishioner relies on her September 24, 1981 handwritten letter to the Elders in which she unequivocally stated that she withdrew her membership and terminated her consent to being treated as a member of the Church of Christ communion. By common-law standards we find her communication was an effective withdrawal of her membership and of her consent to religious discipline.


¶27 Just as freedom to worship is protected by the First Amendment, so also is the liberty to recede from one's religious allegiance.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Sorry Brother, but I just quoted the scriptures. Have a nice day.

It sounds as if you missed my point.
I would like to start a new thread and may I have your permission to move your post I originally quoted into that thread?
Blessings Brother!!
FCJ

 

[Major]

Major may be I should have been clearer, I firmly believe in judgement.......I couldn't agree with it more.........i have actually been in conflict with church leadership for not taking bad behavior seriously, I just believe that there's an appraoch for judgement, I can be very stern, but I believe you can be stern and loving......in the context of my video I was talking about not putting someone down,,,,but pointing them in the right direction........long story short I believe you can be stern and judgmental as you like as long as you are pointing people in the right direction instead of putting them down and making them feel bad about themselves


when I was a youth leader I was incredibly stern with young people who misbehaved but they all loved me for it because they recognised that their behavior was not how they liked to be seen.......anyway, hope i was clearer Major

Yes.....good comment.

 

[Major]

This is good practice for example lets look at discipline in your own home. If your child is misbehaving you dont yell at them in front of all their other siblings do you. First you go to them alone. If they dont listen then you call on the seond witness...say if you are mum, then you call dad and then you both deal with the child. Only after thry still havent listened would you tell all the other members of the family, and if still not repentant, and this is extreme, would you consider a divorce. I mean, a banishment. Maybe to a treehouse. But they are always welcome to come back when they get hungry.

I have no desire to argue your point, however I would like to say that just maybe you are incorrect. IF a parent corrects/yells at their child in front of the other children, don't you think that all of the children will be exposed to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

Take that a step further. When I played sports, not one single coach ever pulled a player aside and talked to him about something he did wrong. He did it in the open for all to here so that the rest of us would work harder at not doing the same wrong thing.

Remember.....Parenting is the capacity to translate vision into reality through love. Sometimes, love must be hard to be effective.

 

[Major]

I have been looking for an assembly for years now, and I have yet to find one.
Unbiblical liturgy and doctrine aside, the current trend of obsessively ridiculous volume (regardless of worship or music style) is everywhere here. Even churches in small buildings with small assemblies crank up the volume (often to the point of window rattling).
I cannot physically tolerate it. When I try, I am unable to concentrate and inevitably leave with a headache.
Before anyone starts hollering about this being simple preference, please understand that these are testable sound levels that would lead to OSHA fines if these assemblies had more employees. If your band/choir/ministers have to where hearing protection/filters to do their 'job' then its too loud for everyone else.

I am right there with you brother. The church I belong to now is mostly elderly, average age is probably 60. We can not tolerate the loud sounds as sounds mask and drown out words so that no one knows what is being said.

Loud instrumental sounds and loud music does not translate into spirituality and neither does standing for 30 minutes signing the same phrases over and over.

That is "emotionalism" dressed up in worship cloths.

 

[Major]

Amen, FC Jim and Major;

God bless you and your families.

Nice blessing Bob. Thank you and may the Lord bless you as well.

 

[Major]

Honestly, because in our hearts is written the word of God and the Kingdom of God is by power not by words and the buildings today are filled with words and no power. So people are fed up with charlitains. It's why I left. They only want numbers, my tithes, and to buy their sermons. There is very little relationship building or reconciliation taught even though that is our actual ministry. This is also why people demand to see proof of God, (search the Philippine President's challenge) and most Christians cannot produce the power. It's so bad, it's actually taught against in churches because they cannot explain the discrepancy in their lives based on the word of God, therefore, they build whole theologies around why it's no longer viable today, dismissing the word of God. Even when Jesus Himself said these are the signs of those that follow Him, it is rejected as not being really said, but added later. I've witnessed the power and I have been used by God with it, but it's solely by Him and Him alone. That is why people are leaving buildings. I grew up with the gifts of the Spirit belonged only for the 12 (even though there were 13), and never taught about the 70 sent with power. So, do you believe the word of God or men making merchandise of you?

2 Peter 2:3 (ESV)
And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2 Peter 2:3 (KJV)
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

If their words are from God, put them on YouTube for FREE (Romans 8:32), not like those that give you 8 mins on YouTube and then a link to buy the rest, or their books, or DVDs. Why do they need $400m buildings? A jet to fly around in? I say, they have their reward. Why should I see you stand at the Dome of the Rock to preach for 15 mins out of 28 mins and talk about your next preaching location and a new bible study series the rest of the time? Indeed, a workman is worth their hire, but George Mueller ran 120 orphanages in the UK without government help, sermons, books sales, bake sales, or speaking fees. He spoke only to God, his El Shaddai (God's breasts - as in all a child needs to succeed from the mother) Who provided every one of his (and those under his care) needs - 100%. That's power. Those buildings still stand today as a university after he built them through this same method of faith in God's abilities Who delivered.

Constantine, when he became a "christian," built the modern church like synagogues and gave the "preacher" a salary. Beware.

I agree with you Abdicate.

The "context" of the Scriptures you posted from 1 Peter is about "Apostasy brought into the church by False Teachers".

1 Peter 2:1...…..
"But there were False teachers also among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you."

Now, may I say this to you in the kindest way I know how to say it......We, the church over the last 50 or so years have become the reason for just what you said. WE have allowed Plastic preachers and teachers to be molded and shaped by the people that they serve. They began to say what their people wanted to hear instead of preaching what God. As a result we now have a bunch of christianettes who only want to hear sermonettes to make them feel good or to think that they can demand stuff from God and He has to give them what they demand.

The God of Creation and judgment has become a cosmic Santa Clause IMO.

Because of that fact, men have become covetous, Just as Peter said of positions, power, popularity and of course money.

Now I believe that you as a Bible student will agree with me that God did not have any popular or rich preachers or prophets.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Now I believe that you as a Bible student will agree with me that God did not have any popular or rich preachers or prophets.

You sure about that?

 

[bobinfaith]

Bottom line too many carnal Christians THINKING they are walking in the Spiritual realm of Christ.

WE have allowed Plastic preachers and teachers to be molded and shaped by the people that they serve.
God did not have any popular or rich preachers or prophets.

Unbiblical liturgy and doctrine aside, the current trend of obsessively ridiculous volume (regardless of worship or music style) is everywhere here. If your band/choir/ministers have to where hearing protection/filters to do their 'job' then its too loud for everyone else.

Staying within the realm of why Christians are leaving the church;

Hello, FC Jim, Before and after our church first planted, one of the issues we addressed immediately was the carnal instead of the Spirit. My point is our church leaders needed to understand the difference between truly being in the Spirit. Its not a one time shot, then we're on our way. The church should always be in prayer before planting and during the ongoing church ministry.

A church in the spirit always seeks what God's direction is, instead of imulating what the church is doing down the street or what other churches are doing. There are too many preachers and teachers just "playing church and winging it."

Major, its incredible why so many believers are turned off from going to church. If one's doctrine justifies against worshiping in a corporate church setting because of one, ok, two bad experiences, then we strongly encourage everyone to seek HARD with the Lord. A lone Christian will not grow depending only on social media because at the end of the fellowship you cannot shake their hand, go out for a cup of coffee, pray together, cry and laugh together, attend a funeral or serve at an outreach community together, the opportunities to serve "live people" is unlimited with the Lord.

eric m williams, the music ministry is just as much an important part of the church and shouldn't depend on the idealistic praise band, sound system / microphones/ electrical without first asking God what He says. The first three years God used 4 singers and a karaoke and that was it! Later we built the ministry by adding a pianist, two guitarists and a bassist without microphones. Later Our media ministry was very careful in selecting the compact, sound system to handle up to 6 microphones. In other words, music ministers need be in prayer constantly so they learn how to implement the discipline of a praise team or choir. Perhaps there isn't a need for microphones or a drum set. Perhaps there is. But with that the ministry must be knowledgable with balance, setting up correctly. Also, the music ministry is one of the toughest ministries in church because we're serving with different personalilities week to week, year to year.

In my job description the church leaders and board allow me my space time for visitations, ministering, baptisms, preparing the sermon, order of service, etc...and personal time to refresh with my wife. I shouldn't have to "control" everything that goes on. As Major was saying delegation is important. Other leaders and servants have the opportunity to serve with responsibility. This enables God to grow them for His glory.

Our church will celebrate 7 years this September and I feel very strong we have been blessed, structurely. I was blessed to the point of tears when I learned that the core of our church family have been with us serving and growing, much of them for 5 - 7 years. I am truly thankful.

Of course we are far from perfect and have much work to do, but with a structured church we are prepared to face the challenges, sin and sufferings as well as success (many believers cannot handle success) in people, saved and the unreached.

God bless you all and your families.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

People want to "hear" what they themselves want to hear AND NOT necessarily what Thee Lord Wants them to hear.
So the "church" gets a bad rap and members want the Pastor to ONLY speak what They Want to "hear" or they try and run him out of town on a rail.

People today "Think" they have the right and authority to correct and dictate a pastor unto what they "think" . That's so wrong in so many ways.

I am sure there are watered down churches these days especially those with corporate offices in another state but for the most part it's not the church or pastor who is missing it but the members themselves.

Bottom Line......A Believer NEEDS to seek God unto which church He wants them in.
Then without making any excuses, you simply get in there even if it is farther then you want to drive.
Then you stay there until He says to go some place else and it won't be over all these selfish reasons Christians use today.

In the church God plants you - one will find provision both physical and Spiritual and Grace and Blessings and Miracles and everything else one will need to walk out the plan of God for their lives.

No Friends , it's not the church or pastor but the members themselves.
Most that complain don't even attend a church or will humble themselves to sit under the authority of leadership.

Friends open up your eyes, there is a movement from hell to separate the sheep from the shepherd.
It's not big churches or wealthy pastors and members that are the problem, it's judgmental Christians who only see things in their hindered eyesight that SPEAK more lies then what they claim.

Blessings

 

[Major]

Staying within the realm of why Christians are leaving the church;

Hello, FC Jim, Before and after our church first planted, one of the issues we addressed immediately was the carnal instead of the Spirit. My point is our church leaders needed to understand the difference between truly being in the Spirit. Its not a one time shot, then we're on our way. The church should always be in prayer before planting and during the ongoing church ministry.

A church in the spirit always seeks what God's direction is, instead of imulating what the church is doing down the street or what other churches are doing. There are too many preachers and teachers just "playing church and winging it."

Major, its incredible why so many believers are turned off from going to church. If one's doctrine justifies against worshiping in a corporate church setting because of one, ok, two bad experiences, then we strongly encourage everyone to seek HARD with the Lord. A lone Christian will not grow depending only on social media because at the end of the fellowship you cannot shake their hand, go out for a cup of coffee, pray together, cry and laugh together, attend a funeral or serve at an outreach community together, the opportunities to serve "live people" is unlimited with the Lord.

eric m williams, the music ministry is just as much an important part of the church and shouldn't depend on the idealistic praise band, sound system / microphones/ electrical without first asking God what He says. The first three years God used 4 singers and a karaoke and that was it! Later we built the ministry by adding a pianist, two guitarists and a bassist without microphones. Later Our media ministry was very careful in selecting the compact, sound system to handle up to 6 microphones. In other words, music ministers need be in prayer constantly so they learn how to implement the discipline of a praise team or choir. Perhaps there isn't a need for microphones or a drum set. Perhaps there is. But with that the ministry must be knowledgable with balance, setting up correctly. Also, the music ministry is one of the toughest ministries in church because we're serving with different personalilities week to week, year to year.

In my job description the church leaders and board allow me my space time for visitations, ministering, baptisms, preparing the sermon, order of service, etc...and personal time to refresh with my wife. I shouldn't have to "control" everything that goes on. As Major was saying delegation is important. Other leaders and servants have the opportunity to serve with responsibility. This enables God to grow them for His glory.

Our church will celebrate 7 years this September and I feel very strong we have been blessed, structurely. I was blessed to the point of tears when I learned that the core of our church family have been with us serving and growing, much of them for 5 - 7 years. I am truly thankful.

Of course we are far from perfect and have much work to do, but with a structured church we are prepared to face the challenges, sin and sufferings as well as success (many believers cannot handle success) in people, saved and the unreached.

God bless you all and your families.

You certainly seem to be on the right path my brother. Something I had drummed into my understanding many years ago by a wonderful professor was the essence of preaching and establishing a spirit filled church was...……….
1. Did God say it?
2. Can God lie?
3. Is hell real?

 

[Major]

ooops.

 

[Abdicate]

It sounds as if you missed my point.
I would like to start a new thread and may I have your permission to move your post I originally quoted into that thread?
Blessings Brother!!
FCJ

No thank you.

 

[Major]

You sure about that?

Yes, IMO. I guess it depends on ones point of view but To name just a few...………….

Moses was chased by Pharaoh and out of 2 million who left Egypt 2 entered the Promised Land.
Noah preached for 120 years and only had 7 people get saved.
Isaiah was sawed in half.
Amos was tortured and killed by The priest of Bethel.
Micah was slain by Joram the son of Ahab.
Habakkuk was stoned by the Jews in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah was stoned by Jews.
Ezekiel was killed by The chief of the Jews.
Zechariah was slain by Joash the king.

Paul was beheaded.
Peter was crucified,
Andrew was crucified.
Thomas died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.
Philip was cruelly put to death.
Matthew was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.
James was stoned and then clubbed to death.
Matthais was burned to death.
Jesus was crucified.

1 Kings 18:4...….
"for when Jezebel destroyed the prophets of the LORD, Obadiah took a hundred prophets and hid them by fifties in a cave, and provided them with bread and water."


1 Kings 19:14...…...
"Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

Jeremiah 38:4...……...
"Then the officials said to the king, "Now let this man be put to death, inasmuch as he is discouraging the men of war who are left in this city and all the people, by speaking such words to them; for this man is not seeking the well-being of this people but rather their harm."

Matthew 23:35...…….
"so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."


Matthew 23:37...………...
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

1 Thess. 2:15...……..
"who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men".

 

[aha]

Bottom Line......A Believer NEEDS to seek God unto which church He wants them in.

Then without making any excuses, you simply get in there even if it is farther then you want to drive.
Then you stay there until He says to go some place else and it won't be over all these selfish reasons Christians use today.

In the church God plants you - one will find provision both physical and Spiritual and Grace and Blessings and Miracles and everything else one will need to walk out the plan of God for their lives.

No Friends , it's not the church or pastor but the members themselves.

I agree that we need to seek God where He wants us in: but does not mean that church is perfect: it still can have some faults (Note2).

Say, the Church in Thyatira: it is a good Church but with have some faults (Note1)….. and I agree: the member chose to stay but they have the Christian liberty (note4) not to agree in ALL of that Church doctrine.


Basis of the post highlighted in red:

REV 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
REV 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first (Note1)
REV 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee (note2), because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
REV 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
REV 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
REV 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
REV 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine (note3), and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden (note4).


thus, a member of A++* grading leaving a church of A-minus" rating does not mean that member basis is carnal. he simply does not agree on some Christian based principle.

*
A++ = very good
A minus = good but have some faults
both can be applicable to a church or member: both are human beings by the way

 

[aha]

Christians are leaving the church because it's all about them.
What they like
What they believe
What they want
What they dislike

Bottom line too many carnal Christians THINKING they are walking in the Spiritual realm of Christ.

I think it need to be emphasized imo: what is the commonality between "a church or a congregation" and "a member"

Both are human beings….: the first is simply a "collective of human beings" while the latter is an individual human being.

An earthly or visible church of human beings is not be equated to Spiritual Church that is PERFECT headed by Jesus Christ.

ie: a member of A++ leaving a Church of A-minus, is not always to be seen is of carnal motivation..

 

[Major]

I agree that we need to seek God where He wants us in: but does not mean that church is perfect: it still can have some faults (Note2).

Say, the Church in Thyatira: it is a good Church but with have some faults (Note1)….. and I agree: the member chose to stay but they have the Christian liberty (note4) not to agree in ALL of that Church doctrine.


Basis of the post highlighted in red:

REV 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
REV 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first (Note1)
REV 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee (note2), because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
REV 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
REV 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
REV 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
REV 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine (note3), and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden (note4).


thus, a member of A++* grading leaving a church of A-minus" rating does not mean that member basis is carnal. he simply does not agree on some Christian based principle.

*
A++ = very good
A minus = good but have some faults
both can be applicable to a church or member: both are human beings by the way

It has been my observation that people leave a church because they become dissatisfied with he pastor and they do not see any way that a change is forthcoming.

Uselly this happens when there is a pastorial change in the church. The Pastor dies or retires or simply has a better offer from another church and he moves on. The new man usually has a "honey moon" period. Eventually he will either show himself to be a called preacher of God's Word or a wolf in sheep's clothing.

For example: if a preacher does not expound upon or preach about the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ after a year, those who believe in the 2nd Coming will begin to look for a church that has a preacher that preaches what they believe the Bible says about the 2nd Coming of Christ.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

thus, a member of A++* grading leaving a church of A-minus" rating does not mean that member basis is carnal. he simply does not agree on some Christian based principle.

Just because he does not agree does not make him correct.
You are confusing the reply with your examples.

When God plants you in a church - you no longer have any legitimate reason to leave unless He Himself places you someplace else.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

For example: if a preacher does not expound upon or preach about the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ after a year, those who believe in the 2nd Coming will begin to look for a church that has a preacher that preaches what they believe the Bible says about the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Amen Brother,
This once again shows how people only want to "Hear what they want to Hear" and have no desire to "hear what The Lord wants them to hear"

Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I think it need to be emphasized imo: what is the commonality between "a church or a congregation" and "a member"

Both are human beings….: the first is simply a "collective of human beings" while the latter is an individual human being.

An earthly or visible church of human beings is not be equated to Spiritual Church that is PERFECT headed by Jesus Christ.

ie: a member of A++ leaving a Church of A-minus, is not always to be seen is of carnal motivation..

You are not grasping this.
The Pastor spends time with God and finds out what God wants said and then devotes his time with God on putting together what he will teach. He stays on that topic until the Lord changes it.

Any excuse to leave is simply saying I know better then the Lord on what should be said.
Blessings